Just when you thought we left the jam stands behind. We're going Paddington on this marmalade before going granular on these gloop promoters. Molly is very un-fun and Matthew chokes before we meet Dr. Mustard Crockman and Jam Trashman as we wonder when breakfast began and what is a chef. And yes, Producer Abby did hate that opening.
Matthew's Now but Wow - Shogun
Molly 0:00
Music. Matthew is so eager to get to the show today.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:06
Let me at those crumpets. This is not the crumpet episode.
Molly 0:09
It's not and you know what? You know what it is. Well, I'm Molly And I'm Matthew, and this is filled milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all, and you can't have any. I
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:19
think maybe we did a crumpet episode.
Molly 0:21
I think maybe so is Abby gonna hate that opening we just did. She's
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:25
gonna love it. It had so much verve. Oh, okay, but we are, in fact, talking about marmalade,
Molly 0:32
that's right. And Matthew picked up some crumpets down at the crumpet shop at Pike Place Market. But the crumpets are not the main thing here. Marmalade is, yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:42
I've been, I've been at Pike Place Market more lately than in the last couple of years. I feel like, just for various reasons, like, my dad wanted to get oysters for his birthday, so we went to half shell down at the market. I met, like some people from work at old stove, brewing. I'm just gonna like plug some local businesses here. Wow. Dealer Randy for marmalade. I went to cost plus world market for marmalade. It's a real working market down there. It's not just tourists. It's mostly tourists,
Molly 1:11
right? But there, there is good stuff down there. Well, so Matthew, let's, let's begin with, with memory lane.
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:16
Okay, so I used to read the Paddington Bear books when I was a kid and that bear and watch the not the new movies, but like the old TV movies,
Molly 1:27
I guess remember those. Like, I
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:29
just remember the books. I know the animation was quite clunky. Like, I think it was like stop motion animation anyway, that bear loves marmalade and, like, I didn't really know what it was like. I have had marmalade here and there, but it's never been a thing that I that I either loved or hated. You don't go Paddington on it. I don't go Paddington on it. Like, I'll go Paddington on other things. Okay? I will say the first time I went to England, it was for work. I was back back I was I was working in the tech industry, and I did some business travel, which certainly, yeah, I was very important. And I was very pleased to see that in the lunchroom at the office on Tottenham Court Road, there was a toaster and there was marmalade and Marmite and some jam, but no peanut butter.
Molly 2:16
Well, unfortunately, that does seem right, right? And like, when I got there,
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:20
like, everyone was like, Oh, you're the American. You're gonna want peanut butter, aren't you? And I was like, I mean, kinda Yeah,
Molly 2:25
yeah, guilty as charged. Also,
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:28
there are two, two great songs with marmalade in the title that off the top of my head. One is, of course, Lady Marmalade,
Speaker 1 2:36
Creole. Lady Marmalade. Vulette vu cucha.
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:41
This isn't ringing a bell. Oh, the
Molly 2:42
vulner thing is yes. So,
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:46
so there's that, then there's the song marmalade by the Geraldine fibbers, truly one of the great songs of the 20th century. And I bet no one out there has heard it because it's pretty obscure, like, if you put this, this song on, it'll fuck you up in the best way.
Molly 3:01
Oh, great. Okay, I can't wait to hear it. Hold on before we leave Paddington entirely. I don't know that that I've told you before, that one of the earliest Halloween costumes that I remember wearing was, I was Paddington Bear, nice. Yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:15
Might you have a jar of marmalade with you?
Molly 3:17
I did not. My mom, of course. You know, this was probably her idea. I think I was maybe four. Yeah, I had a blue coat, and I remember she made this, like, big tag that went on the front, you know, please look after this bear or whatever. And I wore a hat, and it was really cute. Yeah, pictures somewhere.
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:36
That's, that's good, like, I feel like that's like, how much work did she do putting the costume together. Do you think probably very little, okay, which is how it should be, right? No, I think, like, when December was little, we were, like, I don't know, how about which? Like, we can get a hat and a broom, yeah?
Molly 3:50
No, I am, like, not a Halloween person. I, like, really, really don't want to be involved, yeah? Like, December, like, why I'm so unfun? I'm very unfun about Halloween. I just don't care. Like making stuff is boring. I love making stuff. I make stuff all the time, but I don't want to do it for Halloween. It's like a single use. It's a single use holiday. It's
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:12
a symbol of our throwaway society that we don't make our kids dress up as a ghost 365, days a year if I'm gonna make you this homemade costume.
Molly 4:25
Okay, my main memory of marmalade is that I think I was a bit scared of it. It seemed too bitter when I was a kid. And then I remember at a certain point being at my older sister's house, my sister, who is 22 years older than me, so it was kind of like parent age. Anyway, I remember she, I think of her as always having marmalade, and I think of her as always having Dundee marmalade. We're going to talk a little bit about Dundee marmalade, but I remember it being in like a white like, almost like a milk glass, yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:56
jar. I looked it up. I couldn't find any Dundee marmalade. But. I did look it up, and I know exactly the jar you're talking about.
Molly 5:03
Yeah, I think before that, it came even in like a little ceramic crock or something. But I think that was before my time. I love it when something comes in a crock. My dad used to get, like, mutard, yeah, I was gonna say hungry. I'm sure, totally at a mustard Croc. He was an Altoids man, a mustard Croc, mustard
Matthew Amster-Burton 5:23
crockman, yeah, you know when he, when he would go off on his on his business trips, which were actually secret agent assignments, missions would be known as mustard crockman, Dr, mustard crockman, was it?
Molly 5:36
First Name mustard, last name crockman. So much. Okay,
Matthew Amster-Burton 5:41
all right, remember when you found his secret stash of business cards and said, Dr, mustard crockman?
Molly 5:52
Makes me want to write a book about somebody named mustard crockman. Like, yeah, this
Matthew Amster-Burton 5:58
would be a great series.
Molly 6:00
Investigator. Private Eye,
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:03
mustache,
Molly 6:05
okay, Matthew, maybe you should toast the crumpets now. Okay, I'm on it. Okay, well, so I'm gonna just Vamp a little bit. I mean, probably not enough to fill the time here. But so marmalade. What is it? It's a fruit preserve that is made from the juice and peel of citrus fruits boiled with sugar and water. The water, I think, is an important thing to note, because it's not always a part of jams and preserves. The most well known version of marmalade is made from bitter orange, but it can also be made with other citrus. I mean, I've for sure, seen like Meyer, lemon marmalade and grapefruit marmalade, yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:39
when I was out marmalade shopping. Like, first of all, remember when we did the sorbet episode and we found, like, sorbet is nowhere near as popular as it used to be. I don't know if marmalade was ever popular in the US, but it's not very easy to find. It isn't so, so there is Smuckers marmalade in any store, okay? Like, if you want, like, a fancier marmalade, you have to go to a special store and just like, accept whatever they have, which is not going to be many choices, probably, unless it's like, a British import store, which I didn't go to, thank you for hunting it down. Yeah, but, but yeah. So we've got one sweet orange marmalade and two bitter orange marmalades, okay?
Molly 7:13
And I'm very curious. Like, yeah, we'll get here. We'll get here. Part of what is special about bitter oranges, which we will also talk more about, is that there's like an extra high pectin content in the fruit. And so a lot of what I think of when I think of marmalade, is kind of a thick and chunky texture, which of course, comes from the fact that there's peel in there, but also from the particular set you get from that kind of high pectin fruit.
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:39
Yeah, we've talked about how some foods are gloop foods. Pectin is a, isn't is a glue of fire. It's a, it's a glute promoter. It's a glute promoter. That's right, if you're working on a glute project, you don't want pectin on your team.
Molly 7:53
I was gonna say, for some reason, I was like, You're gonna want marmalade on your team. Yeah, sure. Matthew, like, before we can really get into talking about the marmalade that we are going to be eating today. We have to talk a little bit about what marmalade like its origins, which actually had nothing to do with citrus fruits. Interesting. Okay, yes, so is Mr. Etymology available? Mr. Etymology has just
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:15
entered the room. Oh, with a flourish, Mr. Etymology his real name actually mustard crockman. Okay.
So according to Wikipedia, marmalade first appeared in the English language in 1480 I remember it well, borrowed from French marmalade, which in turn came from the Galician Portuguese word Marilla in Portuguese, marmalade is a preserve made from quinces, which is probably similar to what we call memory. Oh, today, yeah,
Molly 8:49
yeah. Can you get more granular for us? Mr. Mr. Granular
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:52
as you want. Etymology. The Portuguese word comes from the Greek melee, melon, sweet apple, from the Greek words for honey and apple together, these became marmello. Marmello in Portuguese, and the use of the word in English to refer to a citrus fruit preserve didn't happen until the 17th century, when citrus became plentiful enough in England for the usage to become common.
Molly 9:15
I think you're gonna like this dumb, stupid, apocryphal story about the word marmalade. So some say that Mary, Queen of Scots, consumed marmalade as a treatment for seasickness, and that the name came from her maids whispering, Mary emilad, yep.
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:34
Mary. Yeah, yep, definitely true. Mr. Etymology. Seal of approval. This
Molly 9:41
is not true at all. So as you you can tell from the etymology of the word marmalade, originally was a quince thing. It was not at all what we're thinking of as this, like citrus stuff. And this quince marmalade dates back to the ancient Romans, who apparently noticed that when. The Greeks cooked quinces slowly and honey, the resulting stuff would set. Basically the must have been the pectin, the glute promoter in the quince. Now,
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:10
I always forget what a quince is. It's kind of like a pear. It looks like kind
Molly 10:15
of a cross between an apple and a pear. It's got kind of a almost like a fuzzy skin on it. It's super fragrant. It is very hard, and you have to cook it for quite some time before it becomes edible. And it has a little bit of a appley texture once it's cooked, but with the kind of granularness of some pears. Oh,
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:37
I can go granular. I can go as granular as you want. Great. Okay, I just opened the first Marvel aid, but I can't open the second one because the door is too hard to open.
Molly 10:45
Carry on. So, epicus, that ancient Roman pickies,
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:49
we He's coming. He's joined the guest. Was a book, well, but I think it's a book by a guy. Is it well, like, sometimes, sometimes when someone, like, in the old days wrote a book, like, the book and the guy would have the same name, like, you know, Bible, yeah. Like, Johnny, Bible. Like, like, Pliny the Elder. Like, I guess, I guess blind the elders books had names, but I think people just refer to like, like, you know, who's the French guy,
Molly 11:16
lava Ren or Faye ACOSS
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:19
a Escoffier. Isn't a coast like a skunk, it's me, Scotland, Scotland. Yeah, sorry, Scotland.
Molly 11:32
So basically, uh, epicus gives a recipe for preserving quinces in a bath honey diluted in grape syrup. So this was all called marmalade. You know, back in the day in medieval France, they made quince preserves that they called COVID Yak, and these were seasoned with lots of spices, like things were in in the medieval ages. Very century recipes began eliminating the spices, and then this, this stuff. So we're still in quince marmalade here. Okay, wow. Okay, we're
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:04
still in Prince marmalade. No idea quinces were gonna appear on this episode at all.
Molly 12:07
Yeah, get ready. So I want to read to you a little bit from Wikipedia about what a busy, popular time for marmalade. The 1500s Okay, in 1524 Henry the eighth. You know, he's famous for so many things, but not for this. Get ready. All right, in 1524 Henry the Eighth received a quote, box of marmalade. Quote,
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:28
are you imagining the same thing as me? Like, like a cardboard Amazon box that's just like Marvel dripping out of the corner. Is like misshapen, yeah.
Molly 12:37
Wikipedia calls it a box of marmalade, in quotes from Mr. Hull of Exeter, as it was in a box. This was probably marmalade, a solid quince paste from Portugal, still made and sold in southern Europe. Marmalette was served at the wedding banquet of the daughter of King Neville in Yorkshire. Excuse me, John Neville. Okay, wait, who is John Neville? I don't know. Maybe he was related to Aaron Neville.
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:01
He was probably, yes, he was known. He would tell it like it is.
Molly 13:07
Anyway. Marmot was served at the wedding banquet of the daughter of John Neville in Yorkshire in 1530 its Portuguese origins can be detected in the remarks in letters to Lord Lyle from William gret
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:20
12 may 1534, we'll just pretend we know who any of these people, right?
Molly 13:25
Quote, I have sent to your lordship a box of marmaladeo and another unto my good lady your
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:35
wife. Oh, wait, okay, my good lady your
Unknown Speaker 13:37
wife. Yeah, if
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:39
some, if some Lord sent my wife a box of Marvel aid like it is on,
Molly 13:45
I'm sorry, it's not marmalade. It's Marvel that's even, that's
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:49
that's even, let's like horny Marvel, get
Molly 13:52
ready. Okay, hold on, hold on. Here's a letter to Lord Lyle from Richard Lee. This is 1536 he most heartily. Thank you. Her Ladyship for her marmaledo. It was a favorite treat of Anne Boleyn and her ladies in waiting. Yeah, it sounds like he wanted to get marmaledo. Seems like you know Henry the Eighth, like busy, busy era for Marvel.
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:17
Yeah, he was mostly focused on marmalade at this time in 1524, so you know what I would do if someone sent my wife a box of marmalade, I would take my my glove off and fling it to the ground.
Molly 14:31
No, not
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:34
that. Okay. Can we taste some marmalade? Please? Fine, and then I'm finally gonna get to citrus fruits. Oh, right, okay. Well, let's get, let's get some citrus fruits in our mouth. So I
Molly 14:42
feel skeptical of this meat, sweet orange marmalade also, well, not only because marmalade is not usually made from Sweet oranges, but also the first ingredient is high fructose. Hey, bud. Oh, hi. Okay. Seems like that was just our beak of the week. Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:57
I think so. Okay.
Molly 14:59
I'm not. Excited about this. This, glad we're tasting it first. This has a real gel. Like,
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:05
yeah, very it's not even it's beyond gloop,
Molly 15:11
grainy gloop. I wouldn't kick it out of bed.
Unknown Speaker 15:14
Yeah,
Molly 15:15
I would eat that. I mean, I know it's like 90% high fructose corn syrup. I mean, I'm here for it.
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:20
Smuckers. Like Smuckers, isn't gonna make something bad. I don't think
Molly 15:24
with the name like Smuckers, it has to be good.
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:28
I like it. Yeah, yeah, pretty good. Wait, why are you smearing it all over your it got away, and I was, I was trying to UN smear it, which is not physically possible, but I was trying anyway, because I like to do the impossible. Okay, let's,
Molly 15:39
let's try another one. So this is Dewar's 1881 original course cut Seville, orange, Maryland and Maryland.
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:49
Yeah, you can say it anyway, and it's correct according to according to the history that you've shared so far. I like this one because I feel like this is very like authentic modern English grocery store, label. It
Molly 16:01
does look like that. Yeah, it's darker in color. Give it, oh yeah. Sniff, sniff, okay, okay, ready, yeah, I should say we've also buttered these crumpets, because,
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:13
Whoa, that is. This one's even, even this one's more, more like what I think of quince paste as being, wow. That's really,
Molly 16:20
it's like, it's not so much spreading as, like, disintegrating into shards. Do you see any, I don't see any peel in here.
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:30
Oh, but the flavor is good. Yeah, okay, I'm ready. I don't love the texture. I think that's actually, like the texture, the Smuckers better, but you really get, like, an orange peel flavor. Oh
Molly 16:43
yeah. This has, like, a true this one is not shy, yeah, you know, just gonna eat a little bit, right? Like, where
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:50
do you think they like, strained this?
Molly 16:52
Well, you know, if you would let me read a little bit further, you would learn, no, that bitch, there's bits. Are there kibbles?
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:59
They're also kibbles.
Molly 17:00
You know what? On second thought, this kind of has a lot of brown flavor,
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:06
yeah, which, which also feels like authentically British.
Molly 17:12
I love British food, but yes, okay, so I'm I give this one a solid Okay, me too, yeah. Unfortunately, that is the only one we will be tasting from old England, yeah. But
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:24
like, like, this is kind of the one I want to have in the lunchroom at my office when we go to the to visit the spilled the spilled milk office, the branch office in England, in London. This is what I want to put in the lunchroom, partly because it's quite inexpensive, okay. How
Molly 17:41
much was this one? $6
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:43
this was the cheapest one. Like it was cheaper than the Smuckers, really,
Molly 17:46
yeah. And was this one from cost plus or something? Okay, so the next one we have is a Sicilian one, yeah. Actually, I'm
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:54
excited about this. This one is, this is the texture I was imagining all of them would have. So this
Molly 18:00
one is the loosest. It's the loose I would say it has the most irregular texture, like some pockets of sort of liquidiness. But this is like, Oh, this is actual gloop. Oh, this look. Oh, gosh, this looks nice. What do you think this is? So, by
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:15
far the best one to me.
Unknown Speaker 18:17
Mm, hmm. No, it has, it
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:20
has like, so the Smuckers had some like fresh orange character to it, which the doers really doesn't. This has like the fresh orange character, but also like the sour, the bitter orange bite. And it has the best texture, I think. And I'm glad, because this jar was $20 I
Molly 18:39
am not surprised. I mean, this just makes me feel like I think I'm not a marmalade person.
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:47
Oh, I'm not gonna go, like, on a marmalade binge after this, but I'm
Molly 18:51
sorry I have to have the Smuckers again. So my recollection is that Dundee marmalade has a similar color to the Smuckers, a pretty bright kind of marigold color. Listen, I know this is trash, but your favorite, but I think this one's my favorite, because I think I'm just not that hardcore. Now, this one tastes like a totally different type of
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:15
orange, which it is, it is, no, I really like the Sicilian, but I do like the Smuckers. Also, the durs is very processed. It's not even that it's processed. It's it's extremely thickened and, yeah, like, has a real, like, very cooked, very brown flavor.
Molly 19:32
I think what I imagine is marmalade. Is this one? The Sicilian one? It's very good. I Yeah, okay, yeah. But no, there's nothing wrong with Smuckers. It's a different it's a completely different flavor. Yeah, no, I'm no, but that's very balanced. It's really good. Yeah, I'm
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:48
a total, like, jam Trashman, in the sense that that, like, if I want strawberry jam, I'm probably gonna buy Smuckers. Like, I just
Molly 19:54
want jam trash related to Mr. Crock well.
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:59
I think I'll tell you this, they've never been seen in this at the same gala event, the same time, at the same time,
Molly 20:07
which one of these was sent by William gret to Lord Lyle?
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:13
Okay, well, I think none of them because, because I don't think they would send an Italian one, an Italian one, but, like, they're gonna send something fancier than the doers. So actually, I guess my answer is Smuckers.
Molly 20:28
Let's get back to talking about marmalades. Transition to being thought of as a citrus thing.
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:33
Oh, right, I forgot. So, so, like, we're still in the quiz era,
Molly 20:37
because I would like to remind you that oranges haven't even gotten to England yet. Oh, okay, okay.
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:44
Where do oranges come from? They
Molly 20:46
actually come from Asia. Oh, okay, remember, like, China. I mean, we did a whole thing on, like, tangerines and things we did, yeah, I think bitter oranges, I think are from Southeast Asia. All right, that makes sense. But all oranges come from Asia, bitter oranges and sweet oranges only just begin to arrive in England around the time of all this marmaladew,
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:11
okay, basically much marmalade about nothing you might say so
Molly 21:15
bitter oranges, which we also call Seville oranges, they actually reached Europe earlier than sweet oranges. All right, bitter oranges made it to Sicily. And
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:26
is it because the sweet oranges were really sticky and kept getting stuck on things on their way to England? No way you said you safe.
Molly 21:49
Bitter oranges made it to Southern Italy slash Sicily somewhere between the ninth and 11th century. So you know, 800 to 1000 okay, I couldn't get it pinned down any better than that. The Bitter Orange then made it up to England and Germany in like the mid 1500s so again, around the time of, I don't know the exact era of Henry the Eighth, but we do know that he received that box of marmalade in 1524 No, it was a box of Marvel. Adieu. Bitter oranges got to England and Germany. You okay, a little piece of Peel, like went, you know, like went out the back of my throat. That's so sad, like it's trying to get up into my nose. Oh, you look really, really cheerful. Try and
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:31
make it through the rest of the episode without crying. Okay, I didn't. I already started crying. Okay,
Molly 22:35
all right, you know, mid 1500s you got bitter oranges coming in, and they became the thing to have in your Orangery. Okay, is
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:47
an orangery like a cabinet full of oranges, or is it like a grove?
Molly 22:52
It's like, it's like a little fancy Grove, okay, a little fancy grove? I think so. A fancy good. Yeah, so these days bitter oranges. But did they? Would they grow in England? They would, in fact, the first one to be grown there was sometime in the like the second half of the 1500s okay, I didn't write down the name of the guy who did it, but, yeah, but it was probably his orangery was the tits. Okay, yeah. So you know, these days, bitter oranges are not as popular just for having in your your orange tree. They're grown primarily for marmalade. But between, you know, their arrival in Europe in the mid 1500s and today, they did show up in a lot of recipes in the 1600s and 1700s I feel like I can picture this from what I know about food at that time, which is next to nothing, sure,
Matthew Amster-Burton 23:46
yeah, probably there was some roast that was like dripping with marmalade. Yes,
Molly 23:50
yes, exactly. So the Scots actually to get back to ecos. Nice, yes, nice. Call back. The Scots are credited with developing marmalade as a spread is sconce a skunk in French,
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:03
I guess, S, C O, N, S, E, maybe.
Molly 24:08
I have no idea. Do you want to look it up? I don't know if I if I've ever learned the word skunk in French, I've never learned it in English either.
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:16
Have you ever gotten skunked?
Molly 24:17
I haven't, but I've seen a lot of skunks, smelled a lot of skunk Muffet mouffet. That's so
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:22
cute. That is cute. I feel like there may be other words, but whatever
Molly 24:26
I mean, are you thinking of a sconce, like a wall sconce? The sconce, I was
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:30
right, S, C, O, N, S, E, it's like the second. The second is skulls. Yes, I'm thinking of like a wall sconce. Okay, that's when you mount a skunk on your wall.
Molly 24:39
So the Scots were the first ones who made earth like developed a marmalade that was this spreadable thing. Before that, it was a paste, which, again, kind of leads me to think it was really like what we call embryo today. Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:52
the texture of this durs marmalade is pretty pasty.
Molly 24:56
It is pretty pasty, but I do think it's intended to be a spread, though. Don't you? Oh, yeah, in like the 1700s Scottish recipes started adding more water to make this like looser stuff. All right, the first printed recipe for marmalade appeared in 1714 and it used acid in the lemon juice to help the pectin set. This was the first marmalade recipe, at least on record, that kind of created a lighter color marmalade because you were instructed to pull it off the heat a little earlier because it would set, I guess, more reliably and readily with the lemon juice in it. And although I'm just not familiar with this, is there pectin in lemon juice? So acid in lemon juice helped the pectin set.
Matthew Amster-Burton 25:42
Yeah, so I'm gonna say that like the pectin, like, is gonna behave differently depending on the pH, but beyond that,
Molly 25:48
I don't know. Okay. Well anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say here is that in Scotland in the 1700s marmalade started looking more like what we think of it as
Matthew Amster-Burton 25:57
today, like modern, modern marmalade. Yeah, that's right, that's right. Thoroughly Modern marmalade. They
Molly 26:04
were the ones who also started serving it at breakfast in the 1800s the English followed suit. Prior to that, marmalade tended to be eaten in the evening. When did
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:15
breakfast start? I don't know. I'm sure. I'm sure. Like, I've read, I've read, like some book as a kid, of like, you know, the history of breakfast. It seems like we could do a breakfast episode. Breakfast. We have to start earlier than usual. We will, yeah.
Molly 26:30
In the UK, marmalade, as a word, refers solely to preserves made from citrus peel or made with citrus peel and citrus fruit. But in other parts of the world, of course, you'll see the word used for all kinds of other things. I mean, I think I've seen a jar of apricot marmalade or whatever. When I
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:48
was at the jam store, they had like a three citrus Yeah. Was it the jam store? Of course, sorry,
Unknown Speaker 26:54
was there a bandstat?
Matthew Amster-Burton 27:01
No, we do. Yes And okay, so when I was at the jam star, there was like a three citrus marmalade that was like, maybe lemon, lime, Orange. I didn't get that.
Molly 27:11
Yeah, don't get that one. I mean, not for this episode.
Matthew Amster-Burton 27:14
No, we'll do a separate episode, just about mixed fruit marmalades,
Molly 27:21
anyway. But in general, I mean, I feel like if you use the word marmalade, people are gonna expect it to be a citrus Preserve. So I wanna talk for a minute about Dundee marmalade, because it is important in the history of marmalade. Okay, yes, and then we can be done talking about this stuff. No, no, it's fine. So done until our next marmalade episode, done, D, done, D, this. Oh, what is on the back of my the
Matthew Amster-Burton 27:47
guest, marmalade? Yeah, no, the thing, the thing that, like, I don't need to say about marmalade, is it like, like, those sticky, it's really sticky. But also, like, those, those little, little citrus peel bits really, like, like, a lot of them got into my nasal passages and, like, I kept thinking, like, okay, problem solved. And then, no, there's more.
Molly 28:08
Okay. So the Scottish city of Dundee has long been associated with marmalade, ever since the late 1700s when there was this guy named James Keeler and his mother, Janet, and together, they ran a sweets and preserves shop. They basically opened an entire factory in the late 1700s to produce what they called Dundee marmalade. All right, what made it special was, I guess it, it was one of the first marmalades to incorporate like thick chunks of bitter orange rind. And in fact, actually, I was probably almost whatever I'm going back. I lost Dundee. Okay, train of thought. What I was gonna say is that Dundee marmalade is the first commercial brand of marmalade in the UK, and it's still renowned as a marmalade producer. Yeah, I'm
Matthew Amster-Burton 28:59
sure if our show was based in the UK. I wouldn't have had any trouble finding it. So
Molly 29:03
there's a stupid legend that goes, that goes with the keelers. So they pulled a sword out of a lake. That's right, according to legend in the 1700s James Keeler bought on spec the cargo of a Spanish ship.
Matthew Amster-Burton 29:19
Okay, that had, this sounds like the beginning of a planet money episode. It does, doesn't it? We're gonna learn all about futures contracts. So
Molly 29:27
the ship started out in Sevilla, but it had to seek refuge from a storm, I guess, in Dundee. Okay, so he bought the cargo on spec. And I like, I picture this being like, what is that show? Have you ever seen that show where people, story force, yeah, where people bid on, like, storage units,
Matthew Amster-Burton 29:42
yeah? And if it's full of oranges, that's not a good day. Well, it's
Molly 29:47
like an ancient it must be like an ancient practice, yeah, they used to do this with ships, and now they do it with storage caches. What will they do it with
Matthew Amster-Burton 29:55
next? Oh, geodesic domes.
Molly 29:57
Oh, yes, okay, right. Okay, a pair. Apparently, like, as legend has it, some of the oranges weren't so fresh anymore because, you know, ship off course seeking refuge in a harbor. So Janet Keeler, the good news is, the Madeira came out. Great. That's right, nicely done. Matt, yeah. So anyway, humor, oh. Janet Keeler said, to work making marmalade. This is probably not true, like she, you know, marmalade existed way before this. She probably used a recipe that already existed. Frankly, they were already running a jam shop. They probably already were making marmalade. So that's not, I don't think the actual origin story of Dundee marmalade, but it was a Mother Son thing and they made jam. All right, good, yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 30:43
I like to imagine that that Jimi Hendrix, Kurt, Cobain and Janice Joplin are jamming together at the jam store in the sky, yep. All right, yeah. So maybe we'll try, maybe I'll try Dundee marmalade sometime in the future, but I don't think I'm gonna be buying marmalade again anytime soon, not because I don't like it well, no, we've got so much because we have so much of it,
Molly 31:04
and because you're a jam, no, a trash No.
Matthew Amster-Burton 31:07
Trashman, yeah, so, like, probably I will. If I do need marmalade for something, I'll probably just smuck it up.
Molly 31:17
So Matthew, as we come to the end of the show here, had you bought this stuff before? Maybe
Matthew Amster-Burton 31:21
never. Okay, yeah, do you? Do you keep it on hand?
Molly 31:25
I have occasionally bought marmalade. In fact, about a year ago, I was at like, a de la Renta type store and saw some very, very fancy Sicilian marmalade, not this brand, and I bought it, and it was inevitably bitter. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I'm glad this one balanced. I hated it. Do you eat marmalade? Like, if you are, you know whether there's, like, single serving little tubs of Smuckers jam or, like, a continental breakfast thing at a hotel, I'm just gonna
Matthew Amster-Burton 31:53
get the strawberry or raspberry. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, okay,
Molly 31:57
have you ever cooked with marmalade? No,
Matthew Amster-Burton 31:59
but I imagine, I imagine you could, like, baste a roast.
Molly 32:02
You could, in fact, it's a, it's a pretty classic thing to baste ham with,
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:08
yeah, like, like, I mean, I met, like, a ham jam,
Molly 32:14
jam, no, that would be a jam ham. Okay, jam ham, yeah, yeah, okay. I think that does not
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:19
fall for a jam ham scam? Yeah, no, I would. I would certainly eat a ham. Yes, no, sir, no sir, ham I am. Is that something like that? Yeah, I've read that book in a while. Okay,
Molly 32:38
all right, hey, we have some segments. Yes,
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:43
okay, our first segment. We need a name for this segment, as if it's gonna recur frequently. So called
Molly 32:49
um, something involving follow up. Yeah, follow up,
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:56
follow up, follow up, giddy up, when we did the licorice episode, we got email from friend slash expert on retainer of the show, Professor Ken albala, who suggested that we try pure Italian licorice, which is made from nothing but boiled down licorice roots. So I purchased some spetsatina Amarillo Rosano licorice that comes in, like a little Altoids, like tin. It looks very medicinal. Yeah, I think it's pretty good. And it's literally made from nothing but boiled licorice root that's like strained and that boiled down till it till it's like a hard candy.
Molly 33:34
It's really intense. I mean, it's not intense in, like, a salty licorice
Matthew Amster-Burton 33:38
way, no, it's just like super licorice, like, it doesn't have any, even any sugar.
Molly 33:43
It has almost a, um, there's like a dusty aftertaste in a nice way.
Matthew Amster-Burton 33:48
And this is the, definitely the one that if you ate too much of it, you would die.
Molly 33:52
No, I can feel myself slowly becoming toxic, just,
Matthew Amster-Burton 33:55
just like a toxic person like Britney Spears. Britney Spears song? Yes, no, we're not saying Britney Spears. No, we're not saying just, just that the song,
Molly 34:05
because you know that you're talking sick anyway. No, I can, I like it.
Matthew Amster-Burton 34:10
No, this is why I'm addicted to you for like, what, 778 episodes or whatever. Yeah, yeah, 686, okay, so, yeah,
Molly 34:18
no, what do you think? I mean, would you willingly eat these. Would you recommend them to somebody? Would you I feel
Matthew Amster-Burton 34:23
like, maybe, you know how, like, if your tummy is upset, you might have a little ginger chew. I feel like, if my, if my tummy was feeling not quite right, and I didn't want anything that felt like real, normal food, I might try one of these. Like, I'm not gonna, like, carry them around with me and eat them a bunch, because then I'll become like, a cautionary tale.
Molly 34:39
I feel like this is what Ricola wants to be. Not that Ricola is licorice based, no. But this kind of herbal quality, I kind of like it too, while also feeling a little bit skeeved out by the intensity of
Matthew Amster-Burton 34:53
what's happening in my mouth. Okay, so we're definitely even like sucking on these for the rest of the episode. Okay, hey, we've
Molly 34:58
got some spilled mail. Music.
Matthew Amster-Burton 35:06
This is from listener, Mish, hi, Matthew. I was wondering if you guys would consider doing an episode on celebrity chefs, or just chefs in general that have influenced your cooking. I realize you guys probably know a lot of chefs, so perhaps it would be a bit awkward for you anyway. Up to you love the show. Always cheers. Mish, I don't actually know a lot. I don't actually know a lot of chefs either. No, okay, I
Molly 35:25
don't know that. I want to do an episode, but I wanted
Matthew Amster-Burton 35:29
to think about this question, because to me, it was an interesting question, because it made me think, like, who is a chef? Like, what is and isn't a chef?
Molly 35:36
Here's what I think is interesting, Matthew, I'm just looking at the people you've written down. I know you haven't said them yet. None of these people run restaurants, right? And it drives me nuts when someone says to me, oh, Molly, you're a great chef, right? Which, no, that's not what a chef is. So I don't actually know if I think of these people as chefs.
Matthew Amster-Burton 35:55
So I think David rosengarden did work in restaurants. That's one of, one of the people on my list. You know, that's certainly not what he's best known for, though. Okay, and like, did he like, run a restaurant as a chef? Like, a chef is like the boss of the restaurant,
Molly 36:08
I don't know. I think maybe I'm being too pedantic. I'm being too pedantic. I'm being an asshole here. Well,
Matthew Amster-Burton 36:13
but, but, like, listener, misused, used, used the phrase celebrity chef. So, like, I'm asking, like, is that something different from like, a cookbook author, or, like, a, you know, TV cooking personality. Because, like, when I was thinking about like, who came to mind is, like people that I've been influenced by, I would say, like Marcella Hazan, obviously, David Rosengarten, who used to host, like, in the early days of the Food Network, hosted a show called taste that was just like a really straight ahead like, you know, he did one episode that I think, like, influenced me, like the most, which was about quesadillas, and just like, how to make the best quesadilla at home
Molly 36:45
with, like, the ultimate educated enthusiast. Oh, I loved his show. I used to watch it when I was in high school.
Matthew Amster-Burton 36:52
Yeah, and then friend of the show, pie Lynn from from Hot Thai kitchen on YouTube. I make her pod tie all the time. I make a bunch of pilin recipes. Like, you know, she's influenced me a lot and is a very successful food personality. But is she a celebrity chef?
Molly 37:07
I don't know, sort of, sort of, I think it depends on who you ask. I'm right there with you in terms of Marcella has on, I've learned a lot from her. I hadn't thought of David Rosengarten, but I think there's a time when I would have mentioned him, I would say a current day person who I feel that I've learned a lot from is Julia tershin, sure. And you know, there are lots of chefs out there who I don't think of as celebrity chefs, but they have wonderful work, and I feel like I've learned things from them. Abra Behrens, who is the author of the books roughage, oh, sure, grist and pulp. This is, like a whole pulp based episode. This
Matthew Amster-Burton 37:46
is a whole pulp based episode. Yeah. So I think, I think, really, we just kind of devolved into, like, trying to figure out what a chef is. It is? It is a good question. Like, when I think, when I think of a chef like, I think of, like, the show the bear, someone like, you know, working, working their butt off at, like, a fancy restaurant making food that is, like, like, coveted, because it's unattainable in the home kitchen. And so, like, my cooking isn't going to be really influenced by that kind of cooking, but I might want to go to the restaurant and eat it.
Molly 38:13
You know what? I do want to make a couple additions here. So I would say that, gosh, especially earlier in my career in food, I think that Renee Erickson, who is a chef, Chef well known here in Seattle, and also the author of multiple cookbooks so known all over the place, I felt heavily, and still do, I think, influenced by her approach to food. I think other chefs have sort of come and gone for me, but there were definitely people who I really admired. I mean, Judy Rogers, chef at Zuni cafe. She truly
Matthew Amster-Burton 38:47
pioneer, definitely do make, still make stuff from the Zuni cafe. Cook, oh, I
Molly 38:51
still make stuff. I just made its applesauce. Her applesauce last week. So, yeah, Judy Rogers, I mean, what an icon,
Matthew Amster-Burton 38:58
yeah, like someone who could really like bridge the gap between home and restaurants exactly like I love her, like pasta with fresh corn and pancetta recipe. It is so good, and part of the reason it's so good is because it uses restaurant levels of butter.
Molly 39:13
I haven't made it. It's great. Okay, okay, gosh, that was a really thought provoking question. Thank you, mish Matthew, I understand you have a now, but wow,
Matthew Amster-Burton 39:29
this is kind of kind of late, because this show, by the time you hear this, will have been out for like, most of a year, probably, but Shogun on Hulu, it is a super fun, like, 10 part mini series based on James clavells novel, but it's like a reimagining of that novel from a diverse team of writers. And like, you know, there is kind of a European guy central character, but he's not the most central character. Like, it really puts the Japanese characters front and center. And some like, you know, like Portuguese CC merch. Types, like some really fun Portuguese characters. Hiroyuki Sonata is really the star of the show. He plays toranaga. He's been in a lot of stuff, but like, whenever he comes on screen, you know, he's just someone who is just riveting every time the special effects are really good. I'm like three episodes in. In the first episode, they get into a terrible storm at sea, like, what's sailing on the way to Osaka? And it really looks like those actors are getting soaked. It does not look like like, you know, just someone like, stayed up all night with the with the CGI computers,
Molly 40:33
Matthew, you should try watching the Deadliest Catch. Okay, yeah, if you're into soaking, yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 40:37
Well. And also, apparently, the other thing that's happened a few times is beheadings, and those are also very believable. Okay, okay, excellent sound design on the beheadings. Great.
Molly 40:49
So that's Shogun on Hulu. Our producer is Abby sercatella. You can rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Please do and you can and should chat with other spilled milk listeners on reddit@everythingspilledmilk.reddit.com
Matthew Amster-Burton 41:02
Yeah, I think there's probably some people there who are like marmala do types. I think they're marvel at doers, marmala Dukes. Yeah, they're can't
Molly 41:12
believe you didn't do that one, dude. I
Matthew Amster-Burton 41:14
didn't think of it like it's all it's all you. Yeah, our listeners are like big, big, misbehaving dogs who love us. Brand I'm Matthew Amster Burton. I'm not getting away with that. I
Molly 41:28
know. I'm Molly Weisenberg.
Matthew Amster-Burton 41:35
Like a hang on. Sorry. There's a interesting bird
Molly 41:42
never let you hear the end of this. Oh, look, it's right there. Yeah, it's
Matthew Amster-Burton 41:45
a bush. It's a Bushtit. Okay, so probably our best episode, right, is the one that's gonna win the podcast award, like we're gonna be at the gala with with our friends. What Jack Shrimpton, what were the names? Mustard, mustard, mustard, right? Jam. Trashman, what was I saying before I got distracted by a bird? There are probably some of our listeners who don't know that a Bushtit is a real, real bird
Molly 42:21
up a funny word, no, it's a real bird. And they're so cute. They're so cute, they're so round, like real gray cotton balls. Yep. Okay.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai