Today we're all about seasonal eats in the southern hemisphere as we slice, rip and chunk. We ask 'what's in a name?' as we taste this colorful yet suspicious salad and reminisce about our island partying days. Matthew enjoys the soup while Molly enjoys the extras as we debate the comedic nature of evil little faces.
Janet Fletcher's article about Caprese Salad
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:04
I'm Matthew, and I'm Molly, and this is spilled milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all, and you can't have
Molly 0:10
any today. Well, this episode is airing in December, and if there's one thing that says Happy Holidays, it's caprese salad.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:19
Yeah, wow. We are all about seasonal eating. That's right, it is. It is tomato season down under.
Molly 0:29
So no, we're recording this episode. Actually, in tomato season, we're like, quite ahead of, ahead of our recording,
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:36
ahead of the game. We're ahead of the game was Max Headroom 20 minutes into the future I don't
Molly 0:41
remember. Okay, okay, so, yeah, when we're recording this, it is caprese salad season. But you know, if you live in the northern hemisphere, you might want to bookmark this episode and, you know, come back to it for some helpful tips and hints.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:56
Yeah, in the summer, the tips and hints are gonna come down to, like, get some good tomatoes and some cheese and like, like, this is one of those things that, like, once you know what's in it, that's the recipe. But the research was more interesting than I anticipated. Okay, so did we already say what we're doing?
Molly 1:16
Caprese Okay, Matthew, do you have a caprese salad memory lane.
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:21
I remember this being popular in the 90s, and maybe I even remember it in the 80s, and I always liked how it looked, at least like the like fanned out sliced version. But have always been a little suspicious of raw tomatoes. I've come around to some extent and so, but it was never a thing I was gonna eat as a kid, okay? And my other memory lane is, like, a couple months ago, someone brought a big ass bowl of it to cribbage club. And was, it was like eating it while playing cards, which I thought was really bold, and it looked really good and, and I should have asked for a bite,
Molly 1:53
I would say my memory lane is similar to yours, in that what I remember most clearly is the sliced version, especially with, like, slight, you know, slices, alternating tomato mots, tomato Motts, tomato Motts, almost kind of like fanned out, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. And I especially picture this on a glass plate. Oh, glass plate, absolutely, yeah. This is how it would have been done in the 80s, or maybe 90 100% Yeah. So I'm excited to talk more about how we actually slice our tomatoes now. Oh yeah, yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:26
Keep on wondering, right? And like, like, how we slice our tomatoes, metaphorically, that's right, you're not gonna believe me, but I wrote here on the agenda, Matthew is researching this one, and he's going to guess that this originated in the 70s. Matthew was correct. Matthew was correct. Spoiler alert, good job, Matthew. So okay, but it took me a while to get there, so let me, let me take you along on this, this emotional roller coaster. First of all, the Wikipedia page is a total bust. There's almost nothing on it. Has host Matthew thought about contributing to the Wikipedia page. Now that he's learned so much, maybe I should have you ever contributed to Wikipedia? I think I've edited a page, like, once or twice. Okay, I'm, like, cited on Wikipedia a few times. I think you probably are too.
Molly 3:10
I've never searched for myself because it was too sad the last time I searched that I wasn't on
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:14
there. Okay, yeah, no, I don't have an article. But yeah. Okay. So I found a blog post by a friend of the show, Janet Fletcher, who wrote about caprese salad in 2022 for her planet cheese blog. It's entitled The true maybe origin story of insulator Caprese. I like Janet's writing, and I like that she she shared, like the the most common origin stories, but was appropriately skeptical about them. Great. So this is a good summary of what people say about caprese salad. Okay, so the most popular story, according to Fletcher and like, she's right, I saw this story again and again and again, is that caprese salad was first served in 1926 at the hotel quizzesana In Capri which is a tiny little resort island in Campania, near Naples and Sorrento. And the campagna region is known for tomatoes and buffalo mozzarella, so it's reasonable that the salad would have originated there. The hotel allegedly created the salad for a dinner attended by Filippo Marinetti, author of the futurist manifesto, and a real problematic historical weirdo who, among other things, was anti pasta. Do you mean like antipasti, yeah, yeah, exactly. But he was opposed to pasta for some reason. He was also the co author of the fascist manifesto, which then, when you read more, it's like he was not a good guy, but he wasn't quite as bad as that makes it seem
Molly 4:36
wait. So he wrote the futurist manifesto and the fascist
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:40
manifesto, yeah, so he was like a guy. He was, he was like an attention seeker, political radical. Wanted to be part of Mussolini's whole thing, but they didn't like him, and so he sort of moved away from that later in his life. I think, anyway, there is no evidence that. That this ever happened. There's no menu from this hotel with the salad on it. There's no evidence that he ever ate it. So the next story says that in the 1950s King Farouk of Egypt, who was living in exile on Capri ate it at the same hotel restaurant. So like, so maybe this hotel has like, really good PR person who wrote, like, King eats fresh salad, right? Yeah. So I'm like, how would anybody know? And also, I like, how the most minor celebrities get it, got associated with it. So you can't really prove, like, you know, if they said, like, it was Sophia Lorenz, favorite salad. Well, it would probably be easy to prove that's not true. But you know, an exiled king of Egypt and some, like, Italian political guy that you've never heard of, but I feel
Molly 5:46
like there's a way in which the fact that it is these, like sort of lesser figures makes it maybe a little more believable. Yeah, for me,
Matthew Amster-Burton 5:53
absolutely. Okay. So at this point I was like, I don't know, like, these things don't sound true, but like, maybe this hotel invented it or something. So then I tried to, like, do some actual research, which I know, like, like, do you do that? Like, I was, like, searching newspaper archives and stuff, and no. So I started Google and Graham to see, like, When did people start using the term ensalada Caprese, or caprese salad in books? Okay? And the answer is, caprese salad doesn't show up until the 80s. In salotica, praise starts to show up in Italian language books in the 70s, late 70s, okay, all right. And then, like, both really take off, like in the 80s and 90s. As you would expect, I did a search of Italian newspapers, no mention before the 1970s so this is kind of the story that I was able to put together first. I think it's funny that, yeah, these two actual historical figures have gotten associated with a salad that they almost certainly never ate. The Italian Wikipedia page had a little bit more information, and it did say I translated it. The name of this fresh dish derives from the island of Capri, even if the dish itself probably does not originate from the island. So my conclusion was someone will never know who came up with this in the 70s, probably in southern Italy. And it was at a time when Italian food, and especially regional Italian food, was trendy, not just in North America, but worldwide. And so, like, you know, here's, like, you know, a fresh Italian dish that, you know, they eat in daples, and you've never heard of it before, but you can make it right now. You know it's the perfect thing for your summer evening. But I was also asking myself, tomatoes became popular in southern Italy in the 19th century. Mozzarella, long before that, like they had basil, they had olive oil. It's not possible that someone first combined those things into a salad in the 70s?
Molly 7:40
No, it sounds like that would have happened a long time earlier,
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:44
right? So I think what happened in the 70s is it got a name, and that got everyone excited about it, okay? So, like, I think you know that it was called, like, you know, salad of tomatoes and mozzarella before that, which was like, okay. But the thing I didn't realize until I was researching and then asked my mom, is that everybody thought Capri was the hottest shit Island destination in the world in like the 60s and 70s, my parents went to Capri in 1973 and what did they think? So, first of all, my mom says she mostly remembers how sick they got on the hydro foil to and from the island. But Mom of the show, Judy, says of Capri quote, it was very cool a thing I don't think I've ever heard my mom say about anything.
Molly 8:33
Notify the Chamber of Commerce of Capri they're gonna want to know this.
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:37
Yeah, like, I assume that's when people started talking about Capri pants.
Molly 8:40
Also, did you know that I've been to Capri No, okay, okay,
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:44
this this changes everything, okay, this changes everything. So turning it over
Molly 8:48
to host Molly, okay, so Matthew in the summer of 2009 Okay, once again, we're talking about glory days of press trips. Yeah, in the world of food journalism, I was invited on a press trip that was organized by the Naples Chamber of Commerce, and it was ostensibly so, you know, there was a little bit of time in Naples, but the trip was mostly focused on the islands off of Naples, so Capri Ischia and something else that I don't
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:21
remember me post.
Molly 9:24
The reason why we were going there when we were, or they were bringing us there when we were, is that there was going to be a quote, unquote Film Festival on Capri. Stanley Tucci was going to be there. Yes, Have I not told you this story? I don't think so. Did you meet the touch? Oh, I was in, I was at a party with the tooch. Yeah. Anyway, so what I remember is that this press
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:48
Molly partied on Capri with the touch,
Molly 9:51
hold on. So this press trip was like 50. There were maybe like 20 of us, 50% American and British journalists, and then 50. 50% Spanish photographers, as you might imagine, the photographers wanted to go at a very different pace from the food writers. Sure, the photographers wanted to stop and set up tripods, like everywhere all the time, fucking tripods, fucking tripods. But anyway, when it was time for this quote unquote Film Festival and the quote unquote Gala, you know, welcome to the film festival. I mean, it was, truly, there was no film
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:27
festival. Oh, this is a fire festival scenario, exactly.
Molly 10:31
This was a complete fabrication of the of the Naples Chamber of Commerce. We were, I think we were all staying on Ischia and we watched Groundhog Day on VHS, that's right, we were, we were bussed over. We were, you know, ferried over to Capri. In our fancy,
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:46
they try and put you on a bus to Capri. You should complain.
Molly 10:50
We were loaded onto a bus and we had to go up to the top of the island, which is there's sort of like a big mountain or hill or something, sure. And I just remember riding this bus up this very steep hill at dusk and arriving and all of us being like, okay, like, where's the party? And it was kind of just like a wow, small party that was like a little sad in a hotel lobby, and Stanley Tucci was there, and everybody was fawning over him, and I just felt sad, because it was so like,
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:28
did you see any films? No, I'm not aware of any films that were being shown. I don't think I've ever heard this story before, and it's the best this was in the summer. I'm so glad it didn't go well, for my sake.
Molly 11:42
I mean all this to say, like, no complaints, it was a free trip. Oh yeah, yeah. But my experience of Capri was this, like, weird, kind of sad tourism bureau generated festival that didn't really exist, where they probably just paid Stanley Tucci a bunch of money so they could bring in some journalists and say, Look, we're having a film festival.
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:04
Wow, was there caprese salad? I don't remember, okay, because, all right, that's, that's amazing.
Molly 12:11
We did go to a place making original, you know, like traditional buffalo mozzarella. Okay, yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:17
yeah. So the Yeah, the other thing I was gonna say about is that is the, like, the presentation, I you know, may or may not have predated the 70s, but like, you know, that's when, like, food media was on the rise. This dish photographed incredibly well.
Molly 12:31
And I think there's the other thing, which is that it's the colors of the Italian flag. People love that shit, you know, it's green and white and red, or red and white and green? Yeah? What order they go in?
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:46
I think the red's on the left, like, depends which side of the flagpole you're standing on.
Molly 12:52
So, okay, okay, we don't have to answer this, you know, yeah. So extremely photogenic dish, especially if you did the like, slice version of it, yeah. I mean, what is not to love?
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:04
Yeah, none of this is like a criticism of the salad, which is very
Molly 13:08
delicious. No, no, I feel like the salad is even more delicious than it promises to be, yeah? Because what could go wrong?
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:18
You can put these things together in any proportion, like
Molly 13:21
red, white and green, okay, okay.
Molly 13:33
So, Matthew, how do you go about making a caprese?
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:36
Okay, I've honestly only done it a few times. I prefer chunks to slices, all right. So for like, the ingredients are the whole thing. So let's talk about, like, what I bought and what you would buy. Okay, so I got, I got tomatoes. They have to be like, real summer tomatoes, yeah, don't make this with supermarket tomatoes in at the time you're listening to this episode, unless you live down under. So I got tomatoes, heirloom tomatoes, a couple different varieties from Hilda's farm, which is near Bellingham, Washington. I got them yesterday at the farmers market. And did you buy them? Are they like slicing tomatoes? Are they cherry tomatoes? They are slicing tomatoes, okay? And do you prefer you like slicing tomatoes? Yeah. So I'm not a big cherry tomato fan. I don't like the way they pop. Okay, cool. Like I like them cooked, but yeah, I got the fresh mozzarella from di Laurenti this morning. I thought it was not bad. It was flown in from Wisconsin, which gave me pause, but I thought it was better than, like, grande or belgio. So it was not either of those. It was not a brand name that I recognized, but I also it might have been Joya. There we go. But I did think it was better than the the when the fresh mozzarella you get, like, that's like, plastic wrapped at the supermarket is not great.
Molly 14:48
What about when you buy it and it's in, you know, in brine, yeah, belgio, so brand or yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:53
this, this one was in, was in brine, and that's the way to go. I think the basil was from Alvarez farm. Oh. Also from the farmers market. The olive oil was Trader Joe's Sicilian selection.
Molly 15:03
A How important do you think it is to have, like, a fancy oil for this?
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:08
I don't. I think it's important to have a good tasting oil, but it doesn't have to be like best of the best. What do you think
Molly 15:17
I like to have a good tasting oil? But I don't. I don't usually keep best of the best oil around. No, No, me neither. So for me, a good tasting oil is going to be like California Olive Ranch. Sure, you know, yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:29
that I think of myself as the best of the best, and I like to keep myself on hand. Yes, but, but like ingredients. Who cares? Okay, do you add anything else to it? So I like a little bit of red wine vinegar in there, just to add a little bit more tartness. If the if the tomatoes are super tart on their own, then I'll skip it. Salt. Obviously, I like some kosher salt in the salad, and then a little sprinkle of, of course, salt.
Molly 15:53
So you served yours in a bowl again. You know you had chunked the tomatoes and it looked like you had sort of tossed it all together.
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:00
I had tossed it all together. Okay, yeah, I didn't think much about the presentation. And, like, it does get kind of soupy at the bottom, which, and that soup is very good for dipping bread, and it's called soup. It is called soup. Okay, so it asks me, as they often do, what's your favorite soup? It's gonna be. It's like this liquid at the bottom of the caprese salad.
Molly 16:21
I'm sure there is somebody out there who says that, yeah? Me, okay, Matthew, I'm gonna go through the ingredients. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I get slicing tomatoes from my CSA, which is from local roots. And so if I have slicing tomatoes, I'll use them. If I don't, I always grow cherry tomatoes, usually Sun golds. This year, I also grew a medium sized tomato, a green zebra Oh, yeah, those, those are my favorite tomatoes.
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:48
Oh, those are Yeah. Those are really good. I have a green and they look they got the stripes.
Molly 16:53
They have the stripes. So if I have cherry tomatoes, I have them. If I have green zebras, I cut them into chunks. If I have a slicing tomato, I cut that into chunks too. So not slices, not slices. I don't want. I don't want slices in part, because if I'm gonna then I have to cut them with the side of my fork when I'm eating, and I don't want to do that. I want everything to be a size where I can just put it in my mouth. What did you think of my chunk size? I thought your chunk size was good, good. So for the mozzarella, I usually use belgio. So which I buy, you know, in in brine. Yeah, didn't met market used to make its own mozzarella. Yes, they sure did. That was still do, I don't know. Well, I actually, when I went through there my first appraisal of this last summer, I went to met market because I was like, Oh, I'm gonna get the really good stuff. And now it seems to me, they just are taking, like, belgio So, and packaging it, yeah, with their label. But it doesn't say, like, made in house,
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:50
really, like, there really is a difference. They're really freshly made. Mozzarella is always gonna be the best. So if you have access to that, or you make it yourself, then use that. But yeah, like Belle J ozone brine is quite good.
Molly 18:02
I have also bought Ferndale farms, which is a farm that is up near Bellingham, right Washington, and that's usually sold in plastic with no brine. But I like the flavor.
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:14
Yeah, is not great. When I was buying the tomatoes at the farmers market, there was a different local farm, right? It was not Ferndale that was selling fresh mozzarella. I didn't buy because I just want, didn't want it to sit around for like it had been made the day before. I didn't want it to have sat around for two days because it's best right away, and like, a couple days later is too much. Yeah, yeah. There was a great when I was, when I was researching this episode, I've had a great Reddit thread where someone was, like, I got some fresh mozzarella. It was really good the first day, it was not as good the second day, I chased it on the fifth day, and it was terrible. How long is this stuff supposed to last? Like it was a classic, yeah. Then, if it hurts, then stop doing that. Okay?
Molly 18:55
Basil, okay. I think that the basil should be torn. I torn it. Yeah, torn it not, not cut it, yep. Oh, the mozzarella.
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:03
I'm all out of faith. This is how I feel.
Molly 19:06
The mozzarella, I also believe should be torn. I don't want it sliced. I don't want it cubed. I believe it must be torn, okay? And then the olive I
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:14
believe it must be torn. I feel like this is gonna be like your thriller novel. It's gonna have like, a picture, like a woman with, like, her face obscured
Molly 19:22
on the front, yes, and it's kind of jagged, looking like her face has been torn. Yeah. Okay. So, so far, everything is torn, the tomatoes, the mozzarella, the basil, the bowl, the bowl, okay. But what I want to say, and I think this makes a big difference, we have these kind of wide, shallow bowls that we always eat Caprese out of and I plate the salads into, like, assemble them individually. Oh, interesting. Okay, so because I don't want it toss, okay, could I because I tossed, I don't want it tossed, and I only put olive oil on it, never any vinegar. I also, just like you do kosher salt. I. Like, in the kitchen, and then crunchier salt at the table. Another thing that I really like to do, and this is, like, one of our favorite summer dinners, is, if I'm making a caprese, first, I get out some thin sliced salami. Like, really, like thin, thin slices. And I kind of pave the bottom of our bowls with salami, like a single layer, but I kind of cover the bottom with salami. Then you build the Caprese on top of that, so that with each bite, you're also getting some salami. Wow, sounds great. If we have ripe avocado, I will slice a whole bunch of avocado into it.
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:38
Okay, now I'm out, but avocado, I was totally on board. And then we will eat
Molly 20:43
that with, you know, with good crusty bread. But, but, yeah, I don't like all the juices to get mixed, other than, like how they get mixed at the bottom of the bowl, just passively, Ah, okay.
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:55
And I think, I like, yeah, no, I like, I'm fine with actively mixed juices, because that's how I get my soup. Nope.
Molly 21:03
Mine is a much drier experience. I was, like, I put a decent
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:09
amount of olive oil, or, like, true to the original 1978 version, uh huh.
Molly 21:15
But yeah, I get that, yeah. So yeah. My, my favorite little tweak is that the salami on the bottom?
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:23
Okay, yeah, I'm gonna do that possibly tomorrow. I think I have salami and I have leftover Caprese for breakfast. However, I am definitely gonna make a caprese English muffin, which is just a toasted English muffin with leftover caprese salad spooned on it. So good. It's so good, so good. Have you had a caprese sandwich? And what do you think of the Caprese sandwich?
Molly 21:42
I think I've probably had them. I feel like this is, um, when you're on like an overnight flight and they serve you, like lunch or something, and it's a warmed sandwich in a little packet, it's either, like some sort of weird, like Chicken, Chicken thing, or it's going to be like a caprese thing, like a pesto baguette, and I don't care for,
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:03
yeah, I think, I think I just want the like, I do want crusty bread, but I think I just want it on the side. We had a, we had a Sea Wolf baguette with our Caprese today. It was delicious. Very good, $10 baguette. Yeah, anything else about about this mysterious salad?
Molly 22:20
I actually, I'm really glad that we sort of walked through our different preparations, because they wind up like they taste dramatically different.
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:27
Okay, yeah, let's, let's do, let's do Caprese too, and you can make it your way.
Molly 22:31
Oh, great. Okay, okay, I don't think there's anything else to say ever about Caprese.
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:36
Okay, yeah, I wonder, I wonder what, what minor celebrities are going to get in on the on the history next? I can't wait to find out. Yeah, Watson, I just saw the movie Jaws for the first time, and there, and there's like a English actor in it. Well, now everyone's yelling at their at their podcasting device.
Molly 22:55
Well, hey, speaking of scary things, we have a letter. Some might call it spilled mail? Yes, and it's spooky. That's very spooky.
Molly 23:10
Today's spilled mail comes from listener Aaron, who says, Hi Molly, Matthew and Abby. I love listening to the pod and something about your voice scratches an ASMR itch in my brain, I had to write in because I too have a childhood horror story about Chucky. Oh no, I felt so seen by Molly's story the other week, and wanted you to know you are not alone, Molly. Oh, thanks, Aaron. I am an only child, and was a bar baby from birth. I know my parents got plenty of smack for doing this, but I always had a good time and a cranberry juice so cute. I remember one evening when I was around four years old, Child's Play was on in the bar we frequented that evening, I was absolutely terrorized, scarred and sickened, but could not peel my eyes off the screen for weeks, that evil doll haunted me at night. And here's the kicker, my parents have no memory of this. I brought it up a couple years ago, and they were absolutely shocked, and my sweet mother spiraled about whether or not she was a good parent. Chucky still gives me the creeps to this day. Also I am a 20 something, so childhood scarring by way of Chucky spans generations. Thanks for the laughs.
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:19
Aaron, wow. Thank you. Listener, Aaron, and I don't know this just kind of makes me love Chucky more. Having never seen any of the movies like I just when I see his evil little face, like I laugh every time.
Molly 24:34
Matthew, when I see his evil little face, I laugh every time. What?
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:42
I don't know. It's just a funny character. I haven't like watched him like, you know, disembowel anyone so. So I just think he's just a funny little guy. Like, I'd like to meet him there. I said, wow.
Molly 24:58
Oh, okay. Well, I'm sure our listeners are going to come through
Matthew Amster-Burton 25:02
helping me when I'm hanging out with my friends Jason Friday and Michael Myers, little Chucky will come over. Okay, well, like one time a press trip to Camp Crystal Lake, there was a sad little party. Jason was there. They said Chucky was gonna be there. Never showed.
Speaker 1 25:29
Okay, okay, okay, all right, okay.
Matthew Amster-Burton 25:33
Can't believe you got to go to a party on Capri with the toot, like the only island party I've ever been to
Molly 25:40
I can't believe we've known each other this long, and I've never mentioned it.
Matthew Amster-Burton 25:44
And I mean, maybe you didn't, I forgot, but like, I was thinking about like, well, have I ever been on a do an island party? I think the closest thing is I went to Bainbridge Island with you and producer, Abby. We slept in a one room, one room, tiny house, and Abby got mad because we wanted a hot tub, but then we only used it for 12 minutes. I think that was our first retreat. That was our first retreat. Wow. Okay, so our
Molly 26:10
producer is Abby cercatella, the long suffering.
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:13
Please rate and review us. Wherever you get your podcasts,
Molly 26:17
you can chat with other spilled milk listeners about all the island parties you've been to at reddit.com/r/everything,
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:25
spilled milk. And until next time, I'm Megan the killer doll. And come on, one more horror movie thing you can do it. You're the substance.
Molly 26:35
I'm the No wait, hold on. What was it? The the boogie? No, not the boogeyman, the
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:42
Babadook, the Babadook,
Molly 26:43
I'm the Babadook. Yes, yep, here I come in my suit and hat.
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:47
See you next time in your dreams.
Molly 26:56
Matthew, do we have any segments? That's a
Matthew Amster-Burton 27:00
good question. We do.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai