Today we're alone together as we take listeners along our solo travels to Paris, Tokyo, Rome, Lisbon and Bainbridge Island with Special Guest Producer Abby. While HOTPOTS walks alone we discuss loneliness, crying and experiments in small talk before realizing that there is a fine line between crazy and astute. Through whims and wandering we follow sage advice from WOTSL and share how much better jet lag and eating out solo can be because we are never irritated with ourselves.
Episode 651: Cast Iron Skillet with Michele Norris
Molly's Posts on Traveling Alone
Matthew's Now but Wow - De La Soul, Cabin in the Sky
Molly 0:00
Hi, I'm Molly, and I'm Matthew. And this is spilled milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all, and you can't have any.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:10
And today we're talking about solo travel. That's right. And this episode was suggested by producer Abby, who is actually sitting in the studio. Producer Abby, are you with us?
Abby 0:22
I'm here. I'm here. Okay, welcome producer Abby, thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:27
Let's start with our beloved segment. Is this bit gonna continue for the whole episode?
Molly 0:34
Abby is using her special NPR voice.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:37
We are so pleased to be joined by Mar Elias, and we had an actual NPR host on our show. Do you remember that that was amazing? That was incredible. So let's, let's start with our beloved segment, Memory Lane, okay, Molly, do you have any solo travel? Memory Lane, hold on.
Molly 0:52
Like, do we need to define the concept? I'm not sure
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:55
if we do. So, like, Okay, well, yeah. What is solo travel to us? So I guess, I guess I went from no to yes.
Molly 1:03
So, so I'm thinking any trip that is not like strictly Work, Work Travel is a whole other thing.
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:11
I feel like work travel could be solo travel so that,
Molly 1:14
well, I'm, as you're about to hear from me, host Molly. My solo travel tends to be connected to work, but I think of it as being a separate part.
Abby 1:23
Okay, yeah, because work is like, you have to go in, there's responsibilities that you have to, you know, check off your checklist. But solo travel, it's like, this is your choice, that you want to go and you want to go alone, yeah? Well, whether it's an offshoot of business,
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:37
can I, like, try out an idea that I'm like, making up, like as we get started here. I think what's interesting about solo travel is that it is an opportunity to be someone a little different than you usually are, because you're in a totally different context. And partly you watch it, yeah, partly, yeah, partly it's geographical, but it's probably even more because you are not it's more, yeah, sorry. I'm sorry, just interrupting you left and right. We know. We all know that. We all love to go on long pilgrimages. No, that's, that's hot pots.
Molly 2:09
Yeah, that's hot pots. Okay, based on this definition, the first thing that comes to mind was this past April. So as of the air date of today's episode, this was almost a year ago. Last April, I went to Paris for five nights by myself, five nights, six days. Now here's where it gets a little muddy. I was on my way to the French Pyrenees, where I was going to be teaching for a week. And so here's the thing, I could have just gone straight to the French Pyrenees. I wanted to take a trip of decent length, right? Just a weekend in Paris by myself, since I was going over to France anyway? Sure. So, yeah, so I went to Paris by beginning of this trip.
Molly 2:51
The way you're talking about this, it's as if, like some Pete aunt is going to jump out and say, this was not solo travel. But I think I say this because I wrote about this on my newsletter. I've got some pee dance come out, came out of the woodwork, a couple of people, I think even you were like, but you were traveling for this was connected to a work trip. This doesn't feel like me, are you? Let's, let's, let's go look for the evidence later, because you're gonna, you're gonna blow up a post by me saying, like, no, no, I guess me just like a thumbs down. You know, Matthew, I'm sorry. You're a stand in for for all the people in my life who, for all the naysayers. That's right, skeptics, okay.
Molly 3:28
But anyway, no, you're right. So I went to Paris for this period of time by myself. Then this fall, I was teaching in Italy. This was a truly exceptional year. I didn't want to spend so much money this time Italy, whoa, much more expensive than France, interesting,
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:47
at least Rome well, because, like, everything is, it costs so many lira. Yeah, that joke would have killed in like 1998 Yeah,
Molly 3:56
maybe it's that I was there during high season, because October in Rome is high season anyway. So I just I went to Rome for two nights by myself on the front end of the trip, and one night on the back end. Yeah, this was my recent solo travel. What about you guys?
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:10
Okay, so I haven't done a whole lot of solo travel, but I'm trying to get into it a little more. We'll talk about my recent experience, which we also talked about on this on the refrigerated cakes episode. Of course, I went to Tokyo one time for like, a little less than a week by myself, like before the pandemic. Also Hong Kong for a weekend by myself. Then in November of last year, I did Tokyo for nine days by myself, and went up to northern Japan for a little bit also.
Molly 4:38
So what prompted these trips. Because I guess for me, the trips I'm thinking about, I had something else that I had to get over there for. So what prompted these solo trips,
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:49
probably for both of the other ones, it was like I was dicking around online and like, found a cheap ticket. I know that was the case for Hong Kong. I think it was $610 round trip Seattle, Hong Kong. Hong so I was like, I've never been to Hong Kong. Sounds pretty cool. I'm gonna check
Molly 5:03
it out. And did you think that you might take Laurie with you? No, because I knew
Matthew Amster-Burton 5:07
she wasn't gonna wanna go on a long haul flight for a weekend. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to either, but I figured I would give it a try. And it was fine. Okay? The most recent one, like, I had some vacation days that I needed to use, and also I was just like, I wanna see if I can, like, travel by myself for over a week and not lose my mind. Okay? So it truly was about it was, it was a little experiment.
Abby 5:26
Yeah, I'm excited to find out if you lost your mind or not. Oh, yeah, you're gonna find out.
Molly 5:30
Yeah, I can't actually tell right now. Abby,
Abby 5:33
what about you? Yeah, I'm a deep introvert, and I come from a large family, so anytime I could be alone was very exciting. And I remember, I think the first time I ever flew alone was me and my dad were going back to the states from Budapest, Hungary, and though we left on the same day and we're both going to New York, we took different flights because we both like to fly alone. I guess what that's wacky. This is when I remember the reasoning being, but now I'm thinking, like, maybe it was just cheaper one. Yeah. But I was presented with, you like to fly alone, and I like to fly alone. So let's fly alone and meet in New York. I mean, that does sound cool. It was great because you have,
Molly 6:10
yeah, 18 you can watch whatever you want without your dad looking over your shoulder, yeah?
Abby 6:15
And then in 2022, my husband hot pots, was gonna walk the Camino de Santiago.
Molly 6:23
Just for those who don't remember, it's husband, producer of the show, Brandon
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:27
hot pots bee, it's not hot pots B because hot pots is too perfect. Myself, husband to the producer of the show.
Abby 6:36
Yes, he was walking the Camino. And of course, I was not gonna walk the Camino. Instead, I stayed in Lisbon in a little cottage for three weeks, and I think four or five of those days, my younger sister joined me. But the rest of the time, I was all by myself, and I loved it. Had you ever been to Lisbon before? Yes, we were there on a, I think, 2018 for a longer trip that was in Spain and Portugal. And so it was just like, three days in Lisbon, and I was like, I need to come back here and live here. And then that was the dream realized. Okay, amazing, yeah. And then another walking trip for hot pots. He walked the Oregon Coast Trail last year, and of course, I wasn't going to do that, so I flew to Cabo for a week and found a little hotel with a pool.
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:16
And Cabo, so did you were you like, partying? Non Stop.
Abby 7:22
Oh yeah, non stop. It was crazy. No, literally,
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:25
spring break with Abby. Like, if you remember it, you weren't there.
Abby 7:30
And then this year, I treated myself to a belated birthday present, and before a big Europe trip that me and hot pots were going on, I flew early to London for a few days, yes, and spent that time walking to bookstores and staying in them as long as I wanted, with no one whining. And lastly, hot pots was on another adventure, this time to Egypt, and I did a little Bain Bridge, which is like a 35 minute ferry from Seattle.
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:54
Weekender. Lovely. That was great. Was there a hot tub? No, there was no hot
Abby 7:59
tub. Okay, I don't care for hot tubs.
Molly 8:01
Yes, you know what I'm noticing. I guess it's just this trip to Bainbridge. But Abby, you're the only one who, the only one of the three of us who has done any domestic solo travel. Oh, I'm realizing that both Matthew and I are talking about international stuff. Only Have you ever thought about doing
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:19
I need a judge's ruling here, because two years in a row I went for like, three day trips to Denver to visit friends. If, like, I'm primarily going to visit friends, that's probably not
Molly 8:30
so I thought about this too, because I've done a lot of travel to visit friends, and
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:34
feels different, because you're still different. You're still like, kind of in your social context
Abby 8:39
that so, yeah, still be holding to another group of people,
Molly 8:41
and you're kind of like being received, yeah? Know what I mean? And that's really
Abby 8:46
safe, yeah? Solo, like you're kind of on an adventure, on your own, you'll see what happens, right?
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:50
That was definitely my most recent trip. I learned a lot about myself, interesting to anyone but myself, that remains to be seen.
Molly 8:58
Well, let's, let's get into this. Yeah, I'm like, so what did you learn?
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:01
I feel like I've always thought of myself as an introvert, but now I think I could not really cleanly define myself as an introvert or extrovert. So here is what happens. So I get lonely really easily. I work from home. Watson works from home. We're like hanging out, yapping at each other all day long, pretty much every day. If Watson goes out of town, like, for one day, I'm like, cool, like, you know, I can, I can do whatever I want. I can, like, you know, make weird bachelor food and, like, watch a show that she would hate. And then by like, day two, I'm like, When are you coming home and and like, when I, when I have traveled by myself in the past, there is sometimes I've gotten, like, hit the wall and just been like, I just feel lonely. I'm not having fun anymore. So that was part of why I wanted to do this nine day trip. And, like, partly, you know, I did want to see a couple of friends, but that was very brief, like, meeting for like, an hour or two, and I wanted to explore a part of Japan I'd never been to before. But also I wanted to, like, challenge myself, to see if I could, like, kind of be like, a little a different, slightly different kind of person. A few days.
Molly 10:00
Maybe this is too personal, but no, how does Lori feel about how quick you are to get lonely? Oh, that's a good question.
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:07
Like, I think she's used to it. I'm sure it is annoying sometimes. Okay, I
Molly 10:11
would say that Ash gets lonely much faster than I do. I don't really know the last time I was lonely, honestly interesting, but I think I'm also in a life phase where I'm not alone, alone, or if I am alone, it's because I'm working or, like, for some instrumental reason, right? I definitely have that feeling of sort of disorientation the first day that I'm on my own, or I kind of can't figure out, like, how to go to bed. You can't figure out when to go to bed. But no, I don't, I don't, I don't think I really get very lonely. Yeah, I don't think I get lonely.
Abby 10:45
It takes me a while to like hot pots. He gets lonely after a few days. But I could probably be, I think I hit the mark around two weeks.
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:52
So what does he do when he's when he's, like, walking a pilgrimage route? Well, when he does the walks, he's with a group.
Abby 10:57
He's walked alone, but often, at least at the Camino every night is like at a new albergues, which is like a pilgrimage hostel kind of thing. Yeah, we've all stated albergues, and that's full of other pilgrims. And so there's a lot of, like
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:11
community hats with the
Abby 11:15
pilgrim hats and the shoes with the buckles and the heels. Yeah, walking long distances. Hold on. But I just
Molly 11:21
love the phrase hot pots walks alone.
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:29
Hot pots walks alone. Is it too late to get him a t shirt like for Christmas? So okay, I get to Japan. And the thing about traveling in Japan, when you are from the West Coast of the US, or really, like, anywhere in the US is like, you get to a point in the afternoon, say, around, like, 3pm where everyone you know in North America is asleep, you know, I would like, you know, send, send pictures of, like, here's like, a thing I ate, or here's a wacky sign I saw, like, until, until that time, and then, know that, like, you know, I'm not gonna hear anything back. And there was this powerful feeling every day of like a curtain going down, and like, now you have to figure it out yourself.
Molly 12:05
It occurs to me that this is like you're an astronaut or something, yes, like out in orbit, and there is just no one around, right? But for like, a few hours a day,
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:16
so every day, usually during that time, although sometimes earlier in the day, I would get this really powerful feeling of like, I need to have a conversation with a human and not like a, not like a, you know, you're the cashier and I'm the customer, and I say, Thank you for, like, bringing out my candy that that did not do it. I need to, like, talk to someone about something. It could be like, you know, what kind of restaurants do you like are in the neighborhood, or whatever, but it has to be an app. It has to be an actual conversation. Because I was in Japan, it had to be a conversation in Japanese. You know, my Japanese is, like, solid intermediate level, and I feel really embarrassed about making mistakes in front of people when I talk. But that's what happens every time I speak Japanese. I would say this feeling was stronger than like, I'm hungry and like more along the lines of, I need to pee. Wow, incredibly intense. What would happen if you didn't do it? Would you cry? I think I would cry. Okay, yeah. Like, like, did you cry? I cried with happiness a couple of times. So, so every day I to go out and, like, find an opportunity for, like, a social interaction that would make this bad feeling go away, that's pretty good, and would replace it with an intensely good feel.
Molly 13:30
How it occurs to me that this sounds like drug use.
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:33
Matthew people, yeah, like, yeah. Like, I felt, I feel the same thing. Like, if, if I, like, hold my breath for 30 seconds, addicted to air. No, it felt really positive because, like, I was able to do it every time. I was able to go out and be like, Okay, I'm not going to go to that restaurant, because that's a chain restaurant. There's no chance I'm going to talk to someone. I'm going to go into this restaurant that doesn't have many people in it, and I'm going to have to talk to the guy behind the counter
Molly 14:01
so this feeling could not be satiated by, I don't know, even like, sending an email or composing a text that you knew somebody would get the next morning. Not at all, not at all.
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:13
Okay, make me feel worse. Oh, wow.
Abby 14:15
Okay, you needed the immediate feedback and the, yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:19
I need, like, nonverbal cues, like, it's like I needed someone to like, you know, look at me face to face and be like you're a person.
Abby 14:25
Yeah, exactly. If it's been a while and I've only talked to cashiers, I don't feel this overwhelming urge, but I do sit back and wonder, like, am I a ghost?
Molly 14:34
Okay, wait not to make this philosophical, oh, why not? But this is, I think, why a lot of people spend time on social media right to just be reminded, like, I'm here, I'm alive, I'm a person. Social media is terrible. Well, I agree, but I think that that's what a lot of people are doing on it, is being like, Am I alive? Am I alive? Like, hey, so
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:54
this, this was an incredibly successful trip for me, like, I was able to, like, put myself out there in ways. Ways that I've never felt comfortable with before, and like the rewards were huge. Can you give us an example? Yeah, this was the moment that I that I cried the first morning of my trip. Probably I went to a place right near my hotel that I just found on Google Maps called dodo coffee stand. That's just a little tiny coffee place, like owned and run by one person. And when I say tiny coffee place has two seats outside and two seats inside. And most people get their coffee to go, but it's run by one person, Aki ho son, who's obsessed with coffee. Young woman like running her own business. So I went there the first time, and no one else was there. So she's like, do you want to sit inside? And and I was like, I didn't even know there was an inside, but I'm like, sure. We chatted while she made my latte. She, she like, pulls the espresso by hand. And, like, she pulled the first one tasted. She's like, this is not good. I'm gonna remake it for you. Which, which I loved. And so then we're chatting. I'm like, using, like, all the Japanese I have. She's like, What are you planning to do today? I said, Well, I think I'm gonna go to this spaghetti restaurant that's that's up the street from here, and, like, probably check out this park. Not sure where I'm gonna have dinner yet, but the whole day's open. And she's like, cool. I went back to dodo coffee stand. Five or six days later, I get up to the window and Aki ho son says, Hey, Matthew, how was the spaghetti? Oh my god. Oh my god. And like, Yeah, I like, I didn't, I don't think I actually cried at that moment, because that would have been really embarrassing. But I like, I felt like, I like, oh, like, it doesn't matter whether this was, like, you know, someone who is, like, dedicated to customer service, and was doing that so that I would like, you know, leave her a good Google review. Like, if that's the case, I don't even know, because, like, it feels the same either way, I did leave a five star Google Google review. But just like, I felt like, oh, like, you like, recognized me as, like, a individual human being, and like, we connected about, because you asked me how the spaghetti was, and, like, it made me so happy. I went back another time. We sat and chatted about, about her cute dog. This is amazing, yeah, but, and there were others, like, I went to, I went to a place called dad's restaurant that I've walked by many times. And like, had no idea what kind of restaurant it was. Or, like, you know, how welcoming it would be like, because some, sometimes places, when you like, if you they're, like, upstairs, like, you know, with, like, a little sign in Japan, it's really like a place only for regulars. And, like, sometimes I've tried to go into a place like that and been told, like, you know, we're full, which is fine. That did happen to me on this trip also, but I went into this place, there was no one there, and they, and the guy, dad, apparently, was like, Do you have cash and can you speak Japanese? I'm like, Yeah, I can do, I got, I can do those two things for you, buddy. We saw we talked about restaurants in the neighborhood. He made me an omelet that was delicious. This is
Molly 17:33
so interesting because it clearly like, met this personal need you had. But it was also like, really a travel experience, in that you were navigating another place, people who come from a different place from you and a language, yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:49
that's really cool, like a thing I realized, didn't realize till, like, after the trip. And again, I don't know if this is an interesting observation, but we'll give it a try. Is that part of what makes an interaction feel really good to me, and I think to most humans, is like, you know, the person is like, making eye contact and indicating that they're really listening to you, and you're doing the same thing to them. You know, they're not like, pulling out their phone, but also they're not like, giving those little signs of, like, Yeah, I'm listening to you, but I'm also doing this other thing. When you are speaking a language that you're not that great at. You kind of have to do that for the like, like, probably both of you have to do that in order to understand each other at all. I had to, you know, really concentrate look at the whole context. Like, what's her body language? Like, you know, what exact words is she saying in order to understand what she was saying to me? Because, like, you know, I speak with a thick accent, you know, she would have to do the same thing when I was speaking to her. So even though we weren't doing it, you know, deliberately to say, like, I'm really listening to you, that was the the effect anytime I had one of these interactions. And so you automatically got the good feelings that come come along with, oh, that person indicated with their whole body that they were really paying attention. And so like in the past, I've always felt like, Oh, I wish I could have better conversations in Japan, like, if I was totally fluent and spoken at a native level. But actually, there are things you get out of not having
Molly 19:08
that that's so interesting.
Abby 19:10
What an astute observation. I It was a
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:12
really astute observation. Yeah, like, I got, I got a I was made a professor.
Abby 19:17
Maybe he didn't go crazy. He got smarter. I think
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:21
it was both. I
Abby 19:23
have a question, though, did any of these conversations backfire? Like, where people creeped out or avoided you, or just like, No Talk to the hand creeped out? Well, sometimes, if you talk people talk to you. You don't want them to it's gonna I was
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:36
gonna say I didn't go up to people on the street, but that's sort of not true. So, so I had a couple of experiences in the park, one kind of experience, of experiences in the park with some with some birds. So, okay, so one time I was walking through the park and someone approached me and asked if I would do a survey about local tourism. And I said, I'm like, Would I ever follow. Then the rest of the day, right? And she's like, it's really, like, the survey is designed for like, people, like, coming to the neighborhood from like, other parts of Tokyo, but I'll ask you the question. So it's like, hyper local tourism, so, but, but then, like, we had so much fun. She was surprised at how much I knew about this neighborhood just because I've stayed in this neighborhood before. So that made me feel really good. And we had a really good time. And another, like, on my last day, I went to the park, like, the park where I go birding, and these four old ladies, like, adopted me into their birding group.
Abby 20:31
Not negative interactions. No, I didn't
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:33
have like, like, I had some I didn't have like, anywhere I would where I came away. It was like, that was a negative interaction. I had some where, like, someone was trying to tell me something, and I just didn't understand. Which I hate it when that happens, but like, it doesn't ruin everything. Yeah, yeah. So, so, yeah, I want to do this again. Like, there aren't any other languages that really speak. So, like, I'd have to go back to Japan or go somewhere they speak. Yeah.
Molly 20:56
I'm thinking about how much our individual travel experiences are impacted, of course, obviously, by our familiarity with the place. Yeah. So, I mean, for me, being in Paris alone was really different from being in Rome. I think because I feel a sense of, I mean, wrongly, I feel a sense of ownership over Paris. It's wrong way. I know it well, or at least I did as of 20 years ago, and that is plenty. Whereas in Rome, even though it was very easy to get by there with extremely minimal Italian, it still felt like it did not belong to me. And so when things didn't go well there I felt it more,
Abby 21:42
okay, oh, sure. Like you took it personally, like I do. I'm doing this wrong, or, or
Molly 21:46
no, or like, This place feels difficult, unwelcome. This place just not unwelcoming, but this place just feels a little harder.
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:53
I thought you were gonna say the opposite. I know, because I think so. Think, like, like, you know, I'm supposed to know how Paris works. So when it doesn't work the way I expect, like I feel like, you know, I don't know as much as I think I did, or like it let me down.
Molly 22:05
I did have an experience in Paris 15 years ago that kind of turned me off of it for more than a decade. I was basically grossly insulted by a guy at the airport who was working for EasyJet, the like British, no discount airline, airline, yeah, yeah. No, he told me that I was neurotic and I was being hysterical because I was, I was really irritated about the baggage restrictions, sure. And I was genuinely kind of freaking out trying to figure out what I was going to do with my laptop. All this to say it was so bad. I mean, I was truly, he truly was, like, calling me names and things. It was so bad. And it felt extra bad because it was in this place where I felt like I could hang I mean, we had this exchange in French even, and he was insulting me and calling me names in French. Oh, wow, interesting. It was like, especially bad. But somehow, on that recent on that recent trip, I think I expected less from France. I think I just didn't have such high standards for how it was going to treat me. But yeah, I did find that Rome just felt a little out of my grasp. Yeah, yeah. I
Abby 23:25
so what is it that we like about solo traveling, especially, I was gonna say like, I think we all kind of wrote this in the agenda that we don't have to consult anyone to make our play. Yeah? So what are such a big deal? I don't think like me and hot pots travel very similarly. We like to rest and we like sleep and eat the same things. But even so, on my own, I don't feel responsible to, like, make the day like this, and I I often am in charge of picking the food places, just because I know them the best, and then I feel responsible for how good they are. And for me, it's like it's just me, so I can roll with whatever.
Molly 23:57
I also think somehow, you know, most of the places we're talking about having traveled solo, are places where you have to, like, make a significant investment of time and money to get there, right? So somehow, even if I'm with someone, I feel very comfortable with, like my spouse, and maybe this is what makes it worse, actually, is that there's a part of me that's always like, not just we've got to make this worth it, but I want them to have a good
Abby 24:23
time showing off a place
Molly 24:25
deal for all of us, you know, to be there and somehow bad memories with someone else have a different degree of painfulness other people.
Abby 24:37
Yeah, you know you said on here, Molly, like the bus doesn't show up. Or like, oh, I can stand in this line. Like, this line looks ridiculous if I have to talk to somebody else in it, even if it's hot bots, but if it's just me, then I whip out my book and I have to wait in line for dishume for
Molly 24:51
an hour. No. I mean, I my my morning leaving Paris this spring to go to this teaching gig. I needed to catch a train. Mean, I had been taking busses off and on for, you know, all six days in Paris. I was having a great time taking busses. I get out to the bus, well, I must have missed it by like, one minute. I didn't see it as I was walking up to it, and then the next one must have been running late. And literally, guys, by the time I made the call that I was going to have to take the subway. I mean, I barely made my train to this other town. And if I had been with somebody else as it was like, I mean, I'm dragging my luggage and it's bumping over like cobblestones, yeah, and things are going to save those things are going badly, and I'm sweating that kind of like nervous sweat. It was terrible. But I got on my train and I was like, I made it, yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 25:42
Okay, so before my trip, yeah, I have a couple stories like this, because before my trip, watts said something I'm going to paraphrase. I don't remember exactly how she said. It was basically like, I want you to think about, like, the things that annoy you about traveling with another person and enjoy and playing your day around not having to deal with those things. Like, yeah, that's a perfect example. So, like, there's, like, tiny things of, like, having to, like, negotiate with another person, like, you know, what are we gonna do next? Like, that can be really, like, rewarding, like, you know, like, every relationship needs that, but also it's great to take a break for it. So a couple of examples. Like, at one point I was like, do I do or do I not want to, like, try riding this particular train. And I was like, you know, there's one, it doesn't run very often, but there's one leaving in like, three minutes. I'm just gonna dash over there and, like, jump on it, and like, you know, see what I feel like getting off. And then I rode like, two stops, and then turned around and just like, having to, like, you know, with anyone you know, like, Laurie likes riding trains too, but like, come over here. Now, let's rush for this thing. For no reason. You know, I just got to make that decision on my own.
Abby 26:43
Rates can be so low and you're just like, it doesn't matter if you had fun, then it's a win.
Molly 26:47
It occurs to me that I think that there are certain strategies that we probably employed, or like decisions we made going into the trip or while we were there that enabled us to have the kind of flexibility or smooth travel experience? Oh, that's a good question. So what do you feel like are decisions you made, either ahead of time or on the ground, logistical things, things you packed
Matthew Amster-Burton 27:12
one thing for my last trip, which is not an option everywhere, but in Japan, there are lots and lots of coin lockers. First of all, like first thing when I got into town, even though I was meeting someone, like, pretty far from my hotel, that was, like, on the way to the hotel, I went all the way to the hotel and dropped off my suitcase there and asked them to hold it until check in time. I hate lugging luggage around, like it makes me feel encumbered in every way. And so, like, you know, I spent a couple nights up north in almori, I just tossed my suitcase into a coin locker and just took my backpack and knew my suitcase would be fine.
Abby 27:47
Yeah, nice, yeah. I pack probably similarly as if I, if I travel with hot pots or solo, because hot pots is very addicted to one bag travel, sure.
Matthew Amster-Burton 27:57
So Lori is very into one bag travel. So she reads like, like, her one bag on Reddit, maybe
Abby 28:03
they should do a spin off podcast. Is
Molly 28:04
one bag travel, like, like, not even a care, like a rolly carry on.
Abby 28:09
Yeah, I don't, we don't ever use rolly carry ons. And I did on this trip. Oh, you did okay. Very rarely. We went to Europe for two and a half weeks, and we just had backpacks. But funnily enough, when I went to Bainbridge, I had like, a backpack and a big, huge tote bag, because I bought a bunch of, like, groceries and wine and, like, my watercolor paints, and like, lots of little things that if I was doing a bigger trip I wouldn't have done.
Molly 28:33
Yeah, okay, here's something that I did going to Paris that really set me off on a good foot, which is so I had read a bunch of Reddit threads ahead of time about how easy it might be to walk into restaurants, even popular restaurants, alone, and just get a table, not even at the bar. No, just get get a table or at the bar either way. Yeah, because I really I felt very clear, and I know the two of you felt this way about your trips too, that I did not want to make plans even, even like plans to do things I thought I wanted to do. I felt extremely resistant to having to be anywhere at a particular time, totally. And when I did commit to things like when once I was there, I was like, I do want to go see like the newly restored Notre Dame, by the time I got there and had, like, stayed up till midnight to secure my ticket, and you were like, let it burn. I know I was like, oh, it's crowded. I don't want to be here. And I walked through pretty darn fast and was out of there. But all this to say, I used Reddit to kind of reassure me that I could walk into places, especially if I was eating at like, eight, which is still early for Europe, yeah. But the one thing that I did was I researched on, like, Google reviews and on Reddit, and chose a restaurant for my first night, and I made a reservation there for my first night so that I could, like, get to my Airbnb, which I did around lunch. Time drop all my stuff. I even took a nap, which I never do. The first day you took a nap, I took a nap dangerous. Yes, it was because I here's another thing I did, because I was traveling solo, I let myself stay up all night on the plane reading a book. Usually I would work hard to try to get a little bit of sleep. Oh, interesting. Anyway. So I landed and I was kind of delirious. So I did take a short little nap. I went out, I explored in the afternoon, and then I had this dinner reservation for 8pm at a place that was in the ahandi small where I was staying. And it was so nice to know where I was eating and when scope things out ahead of time, that's right. So like, I knew that I was going to have a decent meal that first night that I wasn't going to have to look around for where to get a seat, and then I felt prepared in the other nights to wing it. Yeah, yes, but that made a big difference for me.
Matthew Amster-Burton 30:53
Personally, I totally get that. I love that feeling of walking around the neighborhood and being like, I'm going to eat there tonight, or if that place is full, I don't feel like I'm that's my second choice. Like, you know, but not make a reservation, just like, scout it out and like, feel like, okay, I got a plan. Yeah, I
Abby 31:07
like that kind of like a scaffolding of a plan, where it's like, I want to try this restaurant at some point, and this restaurant some point in this neighborhood. But when it happens, it's totally up to me.
Molly 31:16
The other thing is that I feel like I've discovered that, or at least now I have language for it, which is that jet lag makes me a little depressed, sure, and so, like, the first day, I will feel a bit down, like I will I will feel lost. I will feel like, oh my god, like, what am I going to do with myself? So if I have sort of the comfort of knowing where I'm gonna eat, I just felt like I hit, I don't know, thrown myself, like a little like life jacket.
Abby 31:46
Or the thing with jet lag too, is, like, when it's with another person, their jet lag affects your jet lag. So like, if they can't fall asleep, like, maybe you're sleeping like a baby, but they can't sleep, and they're tossing and turning, turn the lighting on, reading something again, and then, you know, you're ruined because of their jet lag. Or, you know, like, you took a nap, and I was shocked, but then I was like, well, your jet lag only affects you if you want to wake up early or late. Yeah, it's
Molly 32:09
up to you, yeah. So, I mean, as it was, I woke up at like four in the morning. I read my book for a little while. I fell back asleep until like 10 in the morning. I mean, it just didn't
Abby 32:18
matter, yeah, you're not wasting someone else's day, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:21
I have a story of, like, my biggest, my biggest screw up of my trip, and like, how miserable it would have been if I'd been traveling with other people. But, like, one thing, other thing I remember that was really helpful is I did a thing that I do this at home too, but it sort of felt different. There is, like, every night I would make a list for the next day, yes, me too, yeah. I bought a little, a little campus notebook at the convenience store and write it down. Yeah, every night I put like, you know, like, Friday, November, whatever. I'm gonna go to the park in the morning and look for birds. I'm gonna go to this coffee place. I'm gonna try this listening, listening cafe. And, like, I want to eat one of these.
Molly 32:57
Like, I would do this too. I did it in the Notes app on my phone, because I liked being able to link to things, oh, sure, or copy and paste the hours of something smart. Because what it what it enabled me to do, like, kind of making a list for the next day, was it enabled me to be like, Oh, I'm gonna, kind of go primarily to this part of town. So here are all the things I've like indicated on Google maps that I wanted to do in that part of town. And I'm gonna kind of pick and choose some of them and put them in a list and go for it.
Matthew Amster-Burton 33:30
So Okay, you ready? Ready for, like, my international incident. It's not, it's not that big a deal. But I was sure annoyed with myself. Okay, okay, so I wanted to go to this Hainanese chicken rice place, which Watson and a cots D had have actually both been to separately, but I'd never been. And it's like a place known throughout Tokyo is, like, one of the best places in town for Hainanese chicken rice. They don't take reservations. And so you like, go and you put your name down on a list. So like, I look at this, this sheet that's all in Japanese, which, which I do read. I like, put my name down. I'm like, okay, like, you know that one? I'm one adult. Everyone seems to be checking this box. I'm not gonna read it. I'm just gonna check this box. Also, any guesses what the box was? Smoking? Smoking section, that would have been bad. It was for the staff to check that this person has already been seated. So as a result, I'm standing there and watching everyone who arrived, like, up to, like, an hour after me get seated, while I'm like, standing out in front like an idiot.
Molly 34:28
Why didn't you read it? I don't know. You just were like, oh,
Matthew Amster-Burton 34:33
there's people behind me who want to get on the list, like, like, and every everyone else had checked the box because I got there early, because, like, they hadn't checked the box. The staff had checked the box because those people had already been seated. Already been seated. So I waited almost an hour and a half, and I was getting so hungry and like, you know, it's getting the virus, like, like, like I did then figure it out and talk to someone and they and then they got me a seat, and it was delicious. But can you imagine, like, like, having that experience with someone else?
Abby 34:58
Oh, yeah, no. No torch. You only deal with one person's hangry levels, right?
Molly 35:03
Exactly. Okay, so, so where do you want to travel alone next? I find the
Matthew Amster-Burton 35:07
idea of solo travel to places that I haven't been really appealing because, like, there are, there are things that are fun about like, figuring a place out with another person, but there are also things that are that are stressful about that, right? I think
Abby 35:21
I'm a little bit of an anxious person about safety and things. Maybe that's because Molly and I are women, so I was a different experience. I was gonna
Molly 35:29
say, when I think about traveling in a new place alone, I think I feel a little bit worried that I will come upon a place where I don't feel safe and I will be alone,
Abby 35:42
yeah, for 1000s of my like, no one knows you for Yeah.
Molly 35:46
And the truth is, is, yeah, I think that the places where I would travel alone, you know, the new places where I would travel alone, are pretty limited anyway, sure. So I'm not sure why that concern comes up for me, but I do think that is the problem with living in a female presenting body, yeah?
Abby 36:03
Like, I have a few regrets about my time in Lisbon, and most of them are because Lisbon was very safe and I never felt nervous, but I also wouldn't go out by myself past 10 ish, PM, which I probably would now, now that I knew that, like, oh, it was fine, and my neighborhood was totally
Molly 36:20
great, yeah. So okay, where would you go? Where would you go next?
Abby 36:23
I think Paris, I do like the idea of knowing a place, like getting a little taste of it. Like, for me with Lisbon, and being like, Oh, there's more here that I really want to see. And I kind of want to see it in, like, pretend it's my home for a little bit, like, for the three weeks in Lisbon, I was like, Oh, this is my grocery store. This is my my wine spot. Like, be a regular at a place, and Paris seems like so neighborhoody in that way.
Molly 36:44
I was thinking about this when, when we were, when I was looking at the agenda for today's episode, because I lived in Paris when I was 22 or maybe newly 23 it was where I had my first apartment and my first job, and I was living in a studio apartment, basically. And I was trying to think about, like, how that compares to me for, like, traveling alone, because I was alone for nine months, and I didn't even know my co workers, but they were English speaking.
Matthew Amster-Burton 37:11
Then they made that show about you, Emily in Paris. That's right,
Molly 37:15
but that was like 25 years ago, and I remember because I was just thinking listening to each of you talk about, like, loneliness. I think I did feel lonely that time, sure, but, but it was so outweighed by the thrill that you're describing Abby, which was having my local stuff, and eventually, yeah, having at least a couple people know who I was, and then I would go to my, my English speaking job during the day.
Matthew Amster-Burton 37:43
I mean, we talked about, like, a while back on the show, I for my now, but wow, I recommended the book moshi, moshi by banana Yoshimoto, which is, like, like, a very, like, like, small book, like, it's short and it really is about, like a, like, a few people like, getting to know a neighborhood so they can, like, move on with their lives and, like, get through grief. There is a passage in that book that I'll never like, you know, quote accurately from memory, but it's about how, like, the footsteps that you take in a neighborhood, no matter how light they are, leave an impression in that neighborhood that remains there forever. And I think there is some truth to this lovely I feel that the ownership you feel that Paris is it's not. There isn't anything fake about it. It's real, like it's real to you, and it's real because, like, you had a tiny, tiny impact on your little corner of Paris, whether you intended to or not.
Molly 38:37
And it certainly had an advice on me big time. I mean, I look back on it and I'm like, I can't believe I did that. Yeah, okay, but Matthew, where would you go next?
Matthew Amster-Burton 38:48
I don't know. I'm boring. I just, I just always go back to Japan because, because, like, I always get something new out of it, and also get to eat my favorite donut, I guess, probably South Korea, because I that like, I have one, one co worker there who would be very welcoming, and I love Korean food, and I think they probably have the world's best subway system, which I would enjoy a lot. So that's probably it okay.
Molly 39:12
I think I might try something like Scandinavia. Yeah. Really interesting. I could be very interested in trying like Copenhagen, for example, Stockholm is also really nice. Stockholm, yeah, I've never been to Scandinavia, and Me neither. When I think about doing something, it's funny when I think about going to a place where I have been with other people, like, I adore Greece, and I would love to go back to Greece, but if I go back to Greece, I want to go with my spouse. That is who I was there
Matthew Amster-Burton 39:41
with point. So when I was in Japan, I stayed in three different places, two neighborhoods in Tokyo, and then one place up way up north. And the last place that I that I stayed was, like, in the same building, in the same neighborhood where I've spent some really great times with with Watson and like, that was the most lonely. I was like, why am I in this apartment alone? Alone. I kind of wished I had gotten a hotel for that part. I stayed in hotels most of the trip, but then got an apartment, like, in our favorite neighborhood I was there. Like, I kind of wish this was a hotel.
Molly 40:09
Yeah, yeah. So I think I would, I think I'd check out Scandinavia, because I also think that I love to hear your report. I think I could really enjoy it alone,
Matthew Amster-Burton 40:19
and you'd be you are already something of a dancing queen and, like, that's, that's like, type of person that
Molly 40:25
exists, there exists. There anything that anybody wants to say that we didn't cover.
Abby 40:32
I was thinking of, like, if we had tips, I would say you should get a SIM card. Yeah, oh my gosh. E, SIM card. I use a Rollo, a, i, r, o, l, o, and I'll put a link in the show notes. Yeah, it's like $15
Molly 40:45
and I was gonna say I used saley.
Matthew Amster-Burton 40:48
I heard that advertised on podcast, not ours. I used it
Molly 40:51
both in in France and in Italy. I found it to be a seamless experience, and it also doesn't, you don't use a new phone number. Oh, that's cool. So it's, it's really cool and very easy. It's, you know, it's done by an app. And basically, once you've set it up, once it's, like, almost eerily easy to then add plans for other countries and things. I was almost like, a little nervous before I went to Italy, because I was, like, really did all I have to do was, like, pay this money, and now it's gonna work in Italy, too easy. It's almost stressful, I know, right?
Matthew Amster-Burton 41:24
Anyway, when Watson and I went to Scotland, we both got arrow low E Sims, but we got different ones. Like, I got one for the whole of the UK, because I didn't realize there was a cheaper one for just Scotland. All the E Sims have different like, nicknames the like the Japan one is called the Moshi moshi e sim, the one for just Scotland. Was called Nessy tell, as in, Loch Ness monster. I love that. I was so jealous that Watts got Nessie tell, and I had some boring, like, UK mobile you had, like, Big Ben
Molly 41:53
tell, yeah, nice.
Abby 41:55
The last thing I was gonna ask was, do you structure your day very differently?
Molly 41:59
It occurs to me. So I really in Paris. I almost never left the apartment before 10am even if I thought I wanted to, and if I were traveling with my spouse or with someone else, one of my kids or something, I think I would feel irritated if we stayed around sure that long, whereas, because it was just me. I knew implicitly that I was the one making this decision, and I wasn't irritated with myself. It was luxurious. It was luxurious. I could, like, sit, I could journal, I could make my coffee at home, whatever. But, yeah, if I were with somebody else, I think I would have felt irritated at them for slowing me down. Isn't that shitty?
Abby 42:40
Well, it just is a different context of your trip. Like that trip was like to be a tourist, but this trip is like for your own spiritual edification. And so whatever that was in Paris is what it was.
Matthew Amster-Burton 42:52
I like the I like the idea that that, like you seem to think that, like most of our listeners, are the kind of people who would never get annoyed with something, with someone else for doing a thing that they do. You're right. Our listeners are not, not human. They're like, super, super human robots. Wait, one other thing that I thought of is like, I had to sort of figure out, like, what was the right amount of communicating with people back home? Because, like, I feel like some days I was over doing it, and some days under doing it before I got into the right rhythm. Because, like, I found, like, if I was like, you know, texting, like everyone back home, every time I saw something cool, I was spending a lot of time doing that and not paying attention to the things that were around me. But then also, like, and then one day I was like, I'm gonna try, like, not texting anyone at home all day, and I let people know the day before, it was, like, see if they missed me, right and and, like, I was so I would still respond, but didn't initiate any and it was, it was good to take a break like that. Like, it really did help me focus.
Molly 43:52
Oh, you really are. It sounds like you've become a lot more extroverted in your your dotage,
Matthew Amster-Burton 43:59
yes, yeah. But I mean, like, I need to, I need to relax from spending too much time interacting with people, and then I need to, like, interact with people, to to relax from spending too much time with myself. Wow, they feel pretty equal. Yeah. Anything else about solo travel? I think we, I think, I think this was a lot of fun, and we'll and we should never travel together again.
Molly 44:19
I'm amazed about food. Like, we didn't talk at all about, do you good?
Abby 44:26
This is part of my question. Like, your day? How do you structure your day?
Matthew Amster-Burton 44:30
Oh, yeah, okay. No, we do. We do need to talk about that at least a little bit like, I don't like my days were kind of not that structured. But I don't think that's super from, yeah. I mean, I do, like, just, I feel like I need to eat at particular times, just because, like, I need the routine. But then, like, I would also do a lot of snacking, but I do that when I'm traveling with Laurie. Also, there were, I had, like, a couple of, like, progressive meals where I would, like, eat one thing at one place and then move on to another place, which we would not typically do together. Molly. And I did that in Tokyo, and was,
Molly 45:01
I think Tokyo lends itself especially well to that. I mean, maybe, maybe I don't know, maybe a place like Barcelona or places in Spain would too, yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 45:09
pinchos, yeah, I have a now, but wow,
Matthew Amster-Burton 45:20
my now, but wow is the the new album by De La Soul called cabin in the sky. It's their first album since one of their, one of their founding members of the trio, Dave, passed away last year, and I guess maybe two years ago, by the time you by the time you hear this. And so it is a tribute to him. Like, cabin in the sky is like, sort of rehearse to like heaven, or like, wherever, wherever the people you've lost are, like, up there listening, listening to the music that you're still making. It has like, so it's really sweet. The rapping is really good. And there's like, like, all of the people that you would like that you would hope would be on this album, like paying tribute and like lending versus, are here. And it's just, it just feels like everybody, like, you know, getting together to remember their friend and having a really good time. And you get and you're invited. So that's cabin in the sky by De La Soul.
Molly 46:07
Awesome. Well, our producer, Abby cercatella is here with us today. Thank you, Abby, for being our producer. You are most welcome.
Matthew Amster-Burton 46:14
You can rate and review us wherever you get your podcast. Please do producer Abby has a newsletter that's called the rolling ladder. How do people get it?
Abby 46:24
They can go to the rolling ladder, dot sub stack.com, and subscribe, and then they can get it in their emails every Tuesday. Oh, thank you, yeah.
Molly 46:31
And you can chat with other spilled milk listeners about solo travel or anything else at reddit.com/r/everything,
Matthew Amster-Burton 46:39
spilled milk. And until next time. Thank you for listening to spilled milk. I'm dad's restaurant. I'm Molly.
Molly 46:51
I wanted to take like, I
Matthew Amster-Burton 46:56
think that's a garbage truck doing its thing, but I don't know.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai