There will be blood. Today Matthew Scissorhands takes us from the Stone Age to the Golden Age as we get super nerdy about friable sharp tips. We debate knife blocks and mag strips then have a live on air knife sharpening demonstration before we decide to keep our stones to ourselves.
historical photos of ventres jaunes
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:00
Hi, I'm Matthew, and I'm Molly, and this is spilled milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all, and you can't have any
Speaker 1 0:10
today, we are talking about knife sharpening. And I think
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:14
this was one from Oh no. It's suggested by listener Emily, thank you. Listener Emily, hey. Listener Emily, yeah, I'm glad we're doing this today because I'm, as I mentioned, still recovering from gum surgery and so, like, there are still things I can't eat. So I'm not you can eat knives, but I can eat knives. Crunch, Crunch. We found the one thing you could do, yeah, but no, but I can still, like, I can still use my hands,
Unknown Speaker 0:36
your scissor hands,
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:39
but I have to keep them sharp. So, okay, yeah, these are, these are, like, we have a lot of beloved characters that drop in on the show. There's Mr. Etymology, there's normal Pete, there's Edward cicerant, and we made up all these characters, Mrs. Coveson. Mrs. Coveson, yeah, like, and no one is gonna tell us to cease or desist. Absolutely not. All right, okay, let's, let's put a disclaimer up at the top of this episode, which is this, if you don't want to hear a middle aged guy drone on about knife sharpening for half an hour, dismissed. You can, you could, like, it's a free show. You can, you can wait for next week's episode, because that that is for sure what's gonna happen. Okay, but maybe there'll be something interesting along the way. I can't promise, but I'll try. I sure hope so. Yeah, because I can't leave. As I was researching this last night, I was like, Oh, this is really interesting. And I don't know if anyone else will agree. Okay, no, I get it. Okay, yeah, you're right, Moll, you're you're also like, you're dismissed, and I can just like, Okay, do the whole show myself. I have some errands to run. Okay, Molly, do you have any knife sharpening memory lane? I do. So I remember that my dad had a knife steal, yeah, that he always kept in the knife block. We I grew up with a knife block in the household. I have a knife block in my household. So never did like the magnetic knife strip or insert in a drawer, like how those magnetic knife strips look. But I've never, I don't think I've ever had a kitchen that really had a place for No, maybe I did. Used to have one, but not in this kitchen. You know, I feel like a knife block is kind of a waste of space, yeah, but I don't know. It just, I've always, it's just my thing. How do you get
Speaker 1 2:20
your knife sharpened? So let me tell you, do it yourself. So tell me something my father, when he gave me some when I moved out and he gave me a couple of my parents knives as sort of starters, he also gave me a diamond steel. And I had no idea in the beginning how intense that was right. And so I don't even know what I've done with that. I think I somebody scared me out of using it, okay, simply, but I do have a steel more like the one my dad used. I use it occasionally when I think of it otherwise. Matthew, I don't know how this could be, but I don't even know the last time I had my knives sharpened, and they're doing really well.
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:05
We can talk about that. So that is probably a matter of the type of knives you have and that you have good knife technique, okay?
Speaker 1 3:12
And I always use them properly, yeah, and don't leave them in the sink, things like
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:18
that, yeah, but you, but you do use it like pry tin cans open. That's right, that's right. And I also eat them. Num, num, num, num, num, num, that's what the kids say anyway.
Speaker 1 3:29
But I did take one knife skills class where I learned how to properly use a steal Matteo Gillis of chow time catering. But I still don't. I don't feel confident about using the steel, and I don't really know if I should, and I just don't, I don't
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:47
Yes, as well, well as, as you have, maybe have been told before, and as well as we'll learn over the course this episode, a steel does not sharpen knives.
Unknown Speaker 3:54
Oh, wow. Okay, but, but anything to say then about knife sharpening?
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:01
No, but it is. It is part of the process of keeping, of keeping the edge of some knives honed like yes, and so we'll, we'll get into that in way more detail than you want. It. Okay, great. My memory lane is learning to sharpen knives using Japanese water stones with Chef Brandon wicks in the late 2000s and Brandon is a great Seattle chef who is currently co chef owner of Mashiko sushi restaurant in West Seattle, okay, which is a great local sushi place, and we will link to, although it is paywalled, maybe we can find a way around the paywall. An article that I wrote for the Seattle Times Sunday magazine about knife sharpening with learning to life sharpen with Brandon in 2009 I think, wow, yeah, as I recall, I wasn't able to reread it because I couldn't get around the paywall, but I think, I think it was a pretty good article.
Speaker 1 4:52
Okay, we could have the show just by behind the paywall.
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:57
Okay, yeah, we can do that. But like, do we need. To read my article in order to, oh, to like, do, like a share, like a, like a gift article. Can you do that? I don't know. I don't know. Okay, let's we'll look into it. Okay, we will try. We will at the at the worst case, we'll link to the paywalled article. Best case, we'll link to some way you can read it for free. As I recall, I bled a lot, what? Oh yes, really? Oh yeah. Oh, I had no idea. Yes. Okay, so we're gonna get into like, I didn't really realize until I was researching about the extent to which the way I sharpen knives is the hardest possible way. Okay, so let's start with history. So knife sharpening has been around as long as knives, and I kept sort of drifting into like, this episode isn't about knives, it's about knife sharpening, but knives date from around 2 million years ago. Wait, but there weren't humans then there were. There were early humans. Then were they like homo well, they were Australopithecus and similar genera of humans who made like stone and bone knives. So you would like find some some like stone that that is like, can be chipped fairly precisely, and you would chip it into a to a sharp edge. And then when you need to sharpen it, you would typically like, just chip off some more stone and make a new edge, which is not totally different from how we sharpen metal knives, but is more there's more chipping involved. So for the rest of this episode, we're gonna be talking about how you sharpen metal knives, which date to about 3000 BCE near the beginning of the Bronze Age. Okay, okay, what do you what are your thoughts on the Bronze Age? I've always been a
Speaker 1 6:32
little bit confused about these ages. Like the Stone Age was that like when we made things out of stone, that's when we made things out of stone. And the Iron Age, things out of iron, okay? Bronze Age, we made things out of bronze. Things out of bronze. Was there enough making things out of bronze that we had to have a whole age around it, I guess so. Like, we don't make anything out of bronze anymore, except medals.
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:52
Medals, yeah, medals. Well, I mean, like during the Bronze Age, like everybody was earning bronze medals, like a lot of everybody was coming in third, was coming in third, and they were like, they were like, who is getting the silver and gold medals? They were like, We haven't even invented those yet.
Speaker 1 7:09
Did we ever have a Gold Age? Beats me. Oh, you know what? We're living
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:13
in it. We're living in the Gold Age. Exactly. All right. So most people in most places use metal knives today, although if you recall Ming tsai's show on the Food Network, East me, East West, with Ming Tsai, my grandmother had a crush on him. Oh yeah, it was very hunky. And he used these Kyocera brand ceramic knives, which they do still make and are and like, basically you have to send them back into the company to get them sharpened, because they're made of ceramic, and it's super hard. Once we started forging metal knives, it became clear that certain types of stone were better than others for forming the edge of the knife. So like in order to make a knife, you have to make a wedge out of metal. That's what a knife is. It's a wedge. It's a simple machine, and the thinner you can get the edge of the wedge, the sharper the knife is. So if you try and do that with, like, a really rough stone, like a pumice or something, your knife isn't going to be very sharp because the stone is too rough, well, but a pumice is also crumbly, yes. Well, we'll get into crumbly stones too. Pumice maybe wasn't a good example. But like, if you think of like, like a nubbly stone, like those nubbly bits in the stone are going to take fairly large chunks out of the metal. Oh, and if you're taking fairly large chunks out the edge, is going to be kind of uneven at best and thick at worst.
Speaker 1 8:32
So this is kind of like fine sandpaper versus
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:35
exactly that, yes. So like, if you know, if you imagine standing with fine sandpaper, you're going to get a smooth surface. And like when you're trying to make a fine edge, you want a smooth surface meeting another smooth surface.
Speaker 1 8:49
Yes, okay, yep, I like that. That's it. So you really have to choose your stone wisely, yeah, in order to why
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:55
are we going to get into different types of stone? Although I did, I walked it back a little you'll be pleased to know. Okay, so in Europe, there's like, you can probably imagine a classic image of a blacksmith with a pedal powered grindstone and sparks flying as they like draw a blade over the over the grindstone.
Speaker 1 9:13
I think, I think I saw this in Isengard when the orcs were sharpening swords,
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:21
exactly right? Yeah. So that is, that is kind of like the image of European knife sharpening. By the way. I'm going to be talking a little bit about Europe and a lot about Japan, and I really don't know a lot about knife making or knife sharpening traditions in other places. Like, I would like to know more about Chinese knives, but I don't
Speaker 1 9:39
these are the dominant producers of knives used in in the US or sold exactly in the
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:44
US, yeah, in Japan, it would be a craftsperson, like hunched over a rectangular stone, like moving a knife back and forth over it. That would be like the classic image, okay, and so, like, by the 19th century, tier France, am I tier t, h, i e? Rs, yeah, France became one of the centers of knife production in Europe. And there are many historical photos of what were called ventre zone, or Yellow Bellies.
Speaker 1 10:11
Oh, I think it might, maybe it's Ta, Ta.
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:14
Okay. So these, these ventre zone, were knife sharpening workers who worked laying on their stomachs, like reaching down into like a like a little pit in the floor where there was a water like a hydro powered spinning grindstone. And this was an improvement over trying to lean over a grindstone, which would ruin your back and neck. So it was still a terrible job, but they would be lying on their stomachs like sharpening blades over these grindstones that were like setting to the floor. And in many of these pictures, which I am pretty, pretty sure are real, there would be a dog sitting on the legs of the person to keep them warm.
Speaker 1 10:52
Are you sure it wasn't to provide like counterbalance so they tip over face first into the grindstone? Wow. So wait, what came before this?
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:02
So before this would be like a large Grindstone that was like, you know, a machine that sat on the floor, and you would have to, you either have to be standing or, like, leaning over, okay, to get the knife in contact with it. Okay? So, meanwhile, wow. This sounds terrible, yes. Meanwhile, in Japan, the centers of knife making were Sakai City in Osaka, Seki in Gifu and Tsubame Sanjo in nigata. I've been to Sakai, which is just south of Osaka, and they have like a museum of traditional crafts of Sakai, including a room full of so many knives. And I loved it. I I missed my flight from Osaka, partly because I spent too much time at the knife room. What I really love that also too much time at the okonomiyaki place. Afterwards, I feel like there's a
Speaker 1 11:54
t shirt to be made from this. Yeah, I missed my flight because I was at the knife
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:59
room, yep, and yeah. At the time, I was really pissed off at myself, but in retrospect, it was pretty funny. So European and Japanese knife sharpening traditions are quite different. There in modern times, there is some more overlap, but here are some broad generalizations. Are you ready? I'm so ready. Okay, so in Japan, there is lots of friable sandstone available. Okay. I mean, you probably knew this, like, you think Japan, you think friable sandstone, okay, so earlier, when you said, like pumice, like, breaks up, like crumbles, it's friable. A friable material is one that wears into a powder under friction, okay, so, so a crumbly something that crumbles into sand, basically, is such a weird word, isn't it doesn't mean that it can be fried. If you try and fry these, it won't be delicious. Well, in the other place and Everything's delicious when you
Speaker 1 12:47
fry it the other place I recently encountered the adjective friable. Was on a podcast about menopause, because, oh, vaginal tissue becomes friable. Oh, wow. Like, you know when estrogen takes off, or, yeah, becomes, I guess, dry and sort of brittle. Yeah. I mean, that sounds
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:07
like doesn't sound ideal. Sound good, right? But anyway, yeah, okay, so back to nice sharpening. Okay, go on. Okay. So friable materials wear into a powder under friction, like Japanese sharpening stones are called water stones because you have to show soak them in water before using them, because your goal is to grind the knife against against the stone, wear off some of the surface into a powder, which mixes into a slurry with the water, and it is the slurry that grinds against the surface of the knife and does the sharpening. Would you like to see this happen? I would like to see this happen. How did they arrive at this? I don't know. Like, why not use that's so interesting, because before you got to the part about the slurry, I was kind of like, why not use a stone that doesn't crumble? We will talk about this. Okay. Okay. So Matthew is carrying a what looks like, kind of a,
Speaker 1 14:03
like a really thick subway tile of some sort of a whitish stone that's got some gray on it, maybe, like old metal residue from sharpening.
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:15
Yes, that is exactly right. Like normally I would, I would, like, flatten the surface before I start sharpening. Too lazy to do that right now, but it's on. It's on a rubber, what would you call this rack?
Speaker 1 14:29
It's almost like a, like a vice or like a jig, yeah, like
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:33
a little jig, yeah. This is a 1000 grit water stone. 1000 being kind of a medium grit. So the friable stone is gonna, is gonna make fairly small particles, okay? And these are, these are synthetic, so they so they've like, you know, fused together various like, like particles of the desired size, okay?
Speaker 1 14:52
And do you use the same like grit for all your knives?
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:57
Yes, I will usually go 1000 and then six. 1000 to polish the edge. Like, if I have a knife that's really dull, I will start with a 500
Speaker 1 15:05
grit stone. I really wish I had brought my my knives. Yep. Okay, just
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:09
start like, you know, at the head of the knife. And I would be, normally, I would, I would put a couple of books on my chair so I'm sitting up higher so I can, because
Speaker 1 15:16
so Matthew is, you know, he's got this, this stone in front of him. He's pouring water over it
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:22
to keep it a little bottle I would usually use. He's got his
Speaker 1 15:25
knife with the point away from him, but the the sharp edge is actually kind of toward his body.
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:34
Yes, and really, I should be putting my fingers a little closer to the edge. This is the part where you would cut yourself, because, like, if you, if you, like, get the rhythm off, the knife will go into your fingers instead of into the stone.
Speaker 1 15:45
So you are using your finger to sort of press down on the blade, which is parallel to it
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:51
is pretty close. See, I want about a 15 degree angle, which is pretty shallow,
Speaker 1 15:55
okay, okay. And how do you how do you know when your knives need sharpening. Oh, here we've got the six, 6000 thread count sheet.
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:07
Yeah, this one's per kale, and this one's sateen. Also, I drip water on my seat. Now my butt is wet. Do you want? If you want you can you can probably feel with your finger that this one is a little bit grittier. Oh, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 16:18
So the 1000 count one has just a little bit of, like, the way silicone can almost feel a little grabby under your finger, whereas the 6001 is really silky smooth. Yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:32
Okay, so this is a very powerful inter meaning, can, like, take off a lot of metal really quickly and very precise sharpening medium because of the slurry. So the slurry is capable of producing an extremely sharp edge because the powder is very fine, and so it's like a very, very high grit sandpaper.
Speaker 1 16:53
So why would you choose, like it seems like you could really fuck up your knives doing this.
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:58
I'm so glad you queued me up for that. The reason this works well for Japanese knives is because Japanese knives are made of much harder steel than European knives, and so you probably like unless, like, you certainly can fuck up a knife. Do any knife doing this, but you're not gonna wear metal off of a Japanese knife as fast as you would a European knife, because the Japanese knife is harder.
Speaker 1 17:20
So the knives that I use, the sort of all purpose knives that I use on a day to day basis for cooking, are Japanese. Okay, so could that also be part of why they they tend to hold their edge longer?
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:31
That is an interesting question. The answer is probably yes. Okay, so if you well, we'll get into like, how often you ask me, like, how do I know when to sharpen when I want to sharpen my knives? And it's like, when I'm kind I'm cutting an onion, and it doesn't seem to just go straight through with very little pressure that I'm ready to sharpen. If I were a sushi chef, I would be sharpening my knives every day. Last time I was in Japan, a kid that was mentioned in my book pretty good number one, who was like five years old at the time. This is Zen, is now a culinary school student and just loves food. So when, when I was there, I had dinner with his family at a sushi place, like, you know that they're friends with the owners of this place, and Zen spent like, half an hour talking to the chef about knife sharpening, and it was delightful. God, it's like, this is my kind of nerd?
Speaker 1 18:21
Wow, I'm really wishing I'd brought my knives because, you know, bring them next time
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:25
I'm capable of sharpening knives even when we're not doing an episode. Oh, really. Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 18:37
Matthew, so if I were in Europe, what would be the at home knife sharpening, or would do? Would people do it at
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:45
home, right? Well, yeah. I mean, I do this at home because I like to, like, not because I think anyone should have to in Europe, yes, people are probably, like, bringing their knives, like, either a knife sharpener is like coming around the neighborhood, if it's a village, or, like, you're bringing them into a store or something. Yeah, you use, use oil stones, or stones that don't require any kind of lubrication. They're perfect for sharpening European knives, because they don't need to be as sharp as Japanese knives, and the steel is softer. Okay, so what is an oil stone? An oil stone is just a stone that you that works well if you put oil on it. And the idea of the oil is that it is, it's like washing away the the swarf, which is the like any metal, metal and stone particles. You don't want them hanging around for European style knife sharpening.
Speaker 1 19:33
Okay, because I was gonna say, is it the same thing that the water is doing here? But it's not.
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:37
No, it's not. And you can ruin a water stone by putting oil on it. Okay, okay, I bet you could get nerdier. Okay, so here's the thing I really like. I don't want to oversell this sort of like, theoretical way of looking at it, because you could take it too far. But it is not inaccurate to say that one of the reasons we have sushi as we know it today is because. Of the type of stone that is common in Japan, because you can't make good sushi, like modern, you know, sushi that like, like, the kind that was developed, like in the Edo period, like, you know, 17th, 18th century, you can't make that kind of sushi with European knives. Like you would never like, you know, you can make okay sushi with European knives, but you would never find a sushi chef like, you know, if you saw your sushi chef using, like, you know, a henkels chef's knife, you'd be like, something's not right here. And you'd be correct, because those knives are not sharp enough to make sushi as we know it, okay? And the only way to make knives sharp enough to make sushi is to use these type of sharpening stones. Ah, okay. So like, like, oil stones won't do it. They just, they just can't produce that kind of edge. And so if you think about Japanese cuisine, you're cutting a lot of fish which generally, like, don't have thick bones, and you want to do it very precisely and leave very smooth surfaces, which is a big part of the sushi experience, and other sashimi and other Japanese foods also. And so it's not just that you need special knives to make sushi, but you need special sharpening materials, sharpening stones, in order to make those knives. Like sushi ready. That's so interesting. I did think this was interesting. And then if you think about, like, European cuisines, like, you know, cutting up a cow and like, you know, doing, doing, like, European style butchery, you not only don't need a knife that's as sharp as a Japanese knife, you don't want it because it will dull too quickly. Like, if you take this knife, I have, like, a, you know, this is like a nine inch, like Western style Japanese chef's knife that is sharpened to, like, a very acute angle. This came in contact with like, a big, a big piece of bone. It would just, like, break a piece of the edge off.
Speaker 1 21:48
Okay, I have had that experience. So I have like, a Japanese utility knife, yeah, think it's like seven inches. I somehow broke the tip of it off. Yeah, I didn't even, like, and I am, like, really gentle with my knives, right?
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:03
And so harder steals are great, because, like, you can get them super sharp and, like, they're fun to use, and can cut really precisely, but they're also more brittle and easier to break. Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, if you think about like, like, again, like a Henkel chef's knife, it's a beast, like, it's the the spine is really thick, like, it's sharp into a relatively obtuse angle,
Speaker 1 22:24
and that is what I reach for if I'm going to do something that needs, like a blunt
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:29
instrument, same I like a Victorinox chef that I'll reach for in that case, yeah,
Speaker 1 22:33
if I'm trying to get into like a like a really nubbly winter squash, I'm not going to pull out my Japanese right knife Exactly. Yeah. That's so interesting. Like, instinctively, I didn't know why, but I felt like, oh, this other one is is heavier and sturdier, yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:50
So there's just kind of like a three way, there's a three way, there's a three way, like CO evolution between sharpening stones knives and cuisine. And they all like, feed. Each one feeds into the others.
Speaker 1 23:01
And it's really interesting what you were saying too about the smoothness of fish, yeah, because you're so right. I mean, not only, I guess I just had never thought about,
Matthew Amster-Burton 23:14
I never thought about this until yesterday, either, the fish is
Speaker 1 23:17
on your on your palate, yeah, whereas, like, there's not an animal preparation in Western cuisine that relies upon smoothness, right?
Matthew Amster-Burton 23:28
Like, like, you know, if you think about like a Japanese sashimi knife, like the long, thin one that you like, draw across to, like, slice fish for sashimi or sushi, there just isn't anything in, like, classical European cuisine that would require that kind of knife, and so they don't have it. And also, if they did, it would have been hard to keep it sharp because they didn't have the right kind of rock. That's so interesting, right? That's so interesting. Yeah, okay. So, yeah, very cool. Yeah. I think we kind of talked about already, like, what a sharp knife is. But like, so like, I will, I will, like, sharpen up these knives, sharpen it on the on the 1000 and then the 6000 to really polish the edge. And then it will have a burr on it. And a burr is like a little bit of the edge that is rolled over, and you can feel it with your fingers. And so then I also have, like, a felt pad that's for de burring. But your your sharpening steel, or honing steel, like, is designed to remove a burr or take a rolled edge and unroll it. If you have hard Japanese knives, like, they don't, they probably don't roll that much under under use. But like, you can still, like, you know, if you, if you have a burr, that will de burger,
Speaker 1 24:36
I definitely have had some burrs, yeah. Ah, that's so interesting. So, like, what is this that people say that, like, a sharp knife is, is a safe knife?
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:46
Yeah, I feel like this one of these things, it's kind of true, but
Speaker 1 24:49
it seems to me you have to, like, walk a couple steps away from it to see it being
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:53
true, right? Because, like, I think what people mean when they say that is, like a dull knife doesn't go like, it's easy for a dull. Knife to go a direction that you didn't intend, because it doesn't slice through things very, very effectively. So you have to push hard, and then it could, like, slip and go into your finger. And which is, which is less than ideal. But the thing about a sharp knife is it's really sharp, like, it could lop things off very easily. So, like, it's not like having a sharp knife is, like, a substitute for being careful in the kitchen. You can, like, really fuck yourself up with a sharp knife. I don't think, I don't think that's a surprise. So, like, I think, I think more, it's more like, weird thing, yeah. Like, come to say, yeah, it's more like, I don't like dull knives because cooking with dull knives is not fun, but there are probably a lot more important safety measures that you could be taking in the kitchen.
Speaker 1 25:46
It's interesting thinking about this in terms of, like, razors. Yeah? I mean, I don't, I don't always shave my legs, but when I do, I often think about this like a sharp blade is a safe blade, yeah? Well, the truth is, no, when I cut myself or Nick myself. It is always when I've got like a brand new razor blade, but at the same time, like, do my legs feel smoother? Yeah, of course, right? Somebody like me, yeah, I have a really hard time getting it up to drop my knives off at like a knife sharpener, even though I am lucky enough to have some good ones within my city, sure, because I'm like, What am I gonna do without my knives? Yeah, yeah, of course. So what am I supposed to do? Do I just need to get over myself and do this? Or are there things I can well,
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:34
okay, you're not gonna do what I'm doing here. No, I'm with these stones because, like, it's a that's a hobby, not, like a thing that normal people do, although some, some people do, like, anybody, anybody who, no, like, I mean, you have chefs and obsessives do this. Like, we're past the point where even, like, you know, typical people in Japan, I don't think are sharpening knives at home very much. Okay, so there are a few options, what, what kind of of knives, of Japanese knives do you have? Do you like, like, a sort of, like, Western ish brand, like Shun, or something else.
Speaker 1 27:05
I have a blazon, okay, which is made by, who's the maker of those? Rio, I want to say RYOBI, but that's power tools. Power Tools. I know which one I want to say, like ryokan. That's not right either, anyway, but I use a blazon santoku blazon utility knife that is kind of, it looks like yours in miniature within the angle.
Matthew Amster-Burton 27:32
So if you look at my knife, like, here's like, here is the the thing that gets tricky, but I don't think it's gonna be a problem for you. If you look at my knife, it is mostly sharpened on this side and very little on this side. So it is a mine is two sided, right? So, so mine, it's not, it's not fully one sided, like sushi knives, but it is like an uneven, uneven angle, because that makes it even sharper, because, like, the overall angle is more is more acute. Those really need to be done by hand or with special machines, but if you have one that is, that is, that is even on both sides, there are electric sharpeners that will work fine with your knives. So like a Chef's Choice electric sharpener, you would want one that has a 15 degree angle option, but many of them do. Or if your knives seem sharp enough, that's fine. They're your knives.
Speaker 1 28:19
No, no. But I, when I think about, you know, yeah, I would not say that mine will, like, cut through an onion quite as easily or effortlessly as I know yours will, yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 28:31
But if you don't care, like, if you're not as obsessive as me about that, then you know, you can, like, wait until, wait until they really need it. And like, You're, like, you have to take them somewhere or bring them to me. I guess my answer for everyone listening out there is, just bring them to me. Okay, there is a kind of guy who would be like, everybody needs to have the sharpest knives possible, and you need to work as hard as possible and buy $200 worth of sharpening stones in order to do it. I've definitely met this guy like this. I do this because I enjoy it. Like, if this doesn't sound like something you would enjoy, do not do it. Okay, great. Or, like, yeah, Molly can Molly can bring knives to me. Like, yeah. So there are electric knife sharpeners, I think, like, that kind of guy really looks down on the electric sharpeners as, like, you know, they take off too much metal. You know, they don't actually get your knife sharp. They work fine. They are more than good enough. There are pull through sharpeners that are very cheap and and those, those will get you a not that sharp edge, but like, if your knife is very dull, it will improve it a lot. Okay. There are guided systems, which tend to be used by professionals. And it's like, it looks like something from the hardware store is like a complex jig with like bars of sharpening material that, like, you strap your knife into it and like it, like pulls it across the bars at a specific angle. I've seen like, I think, I don't think any, any of our I bet, I bet one of our listeners owns one of these. And how. Off to you. I have seen these and then, and then there's stones,
Speaker 1 30:05
yeah, okay, okay, well, well, great, wow. Okay, this was very useful. Matthew, was it? Yeah, it was actually, no, I, because I do often think I'm somebody who cares about cooking, like I should take more care of my knives, but I really do. I think I've often thought, like, actually, my knives are fine, yeah, that's that I haven't understood really what that means, yeah. So it's really helpful for me to be able to understand what my knife is supposed to be doing, and learning about sharpening is a good way to
Matthew Amster-Burton 30:40
do that. Yeah, I guess, I guess, like, the one thing I would say is, like, I love Japanese knives, like, you know, if you buy yourself a fancy Japanese knife that is, like, you know, unequally, unequally sharpened, and like, you know, has some like, traditional character to it, you do need to be thinking about, how am I going to sharpen this? Because it's not going to be as easy as, like, you know, buy a buy a electric knife sharpener, or, like, you know, take it to the butcher counter at your grocery store, they won't know what to do with it, so, like, there is a maintenance issue there. Yeah, okay, hopefully people who are going to throw down that kind of money on knives are thinking about that too. I have several other stones that I could show you also. That's okay, Matthew. All right. You can keep your stones to yourself, all right, Molly, do we have any spilled mail?
Speaker 1 31:30
Today's spilled mail comes from listener Rachel, and this is about a hosting conundrum, okay, okay. Listener Rachel writes, I just moved into a fairly small apartment, and would like to host 15 to 20 friends, including their families and kids. I'm planning an afternoon gathering to accommodate nap times, but I'm curious what you would serve as a light lunch, sort of snack, grazing situation, where people will be standing up and mingling, dessert, wintertime beverage.
Matthew Amster-Burton 31:58
I have an answer to this, and I actually, I already let listener Rachel know, just in case the hosting event was coming up soon. Also, I was like, Can you imagine 15 or 20 people in this apartment? I seems like a lot, right? It does okay. So good. So so good on you. Listener Rachel, for like, bringing, inviting in the chaos. Charcuterie, that was my answer. Like, you know, just like, there's gonna be something on there that everyone will like. And, you know, like, some some salami and some and some nuts and some crusty bread and some, like, you know, jams and spreads, and then for, like, a festive beverage, I've always loved Martin Ellie's, and I still do. Kids think it's special. Adults think it's special.
Speaker 1 32:39
Oh, god, yeah, Martin Ellie's and, like, some inexpensive but good sparkling wine, yeah, that would be great.
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:45
Or punch like at school dances, which we did an episode on.
Speaker 1 32:49
You know, I was gonna say, actually, cider. Like good cider, yeah, and maybe mulled wine, if you like mulled wine.
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:57
I had some mulled wine recently. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 33:00
Yes, okay, I love your suggestion of charcuterie. I think you can never go wrong with charcuterie. And I would keep it like really simple, like charcuterie, maybe one or two kinds of cheese that slice neatly. Yeah, you know, God, don't get anything. Don't get a friable cheese. Don't get a friable cheese, and get a couple different kinds of good crackers. I think, like, God, kids always go nuts for berries. So honestly, they're gonna be a bunch of kids around. I would like go to Trader Joe's, even if it's winter, yeah, buy blueberries, yeah. Kids love that stuff. And then where I personally would devote my attention would be to, like, making a plate of fantastic cookies or brownies. Yeah, me too, and I otherwise would just use things that I buy
Matthew Amster-Burton 33:48
in a simple, maybe some black olives, so kids can stick them on their fingers, yeah, and bugles also, so kids can stick them on their fingers, yeah. Like, have a whole array of, like, just things you can stick on your things you can stick on your fingers and, like, take it, get pictures of kids with like, four different foods on their fingers. Yeah. Oh, this is great. Yeah, fuck the charcuterie, like, just, just, just olives, bugles, raspberries, only fingerable items. That's right, forget I said, Okay, all right. Our producer is Abby circuit. Tell aka Absinthe circuit. Tell us. We'll see how long this last
Speaker 1 34:20
Okay, okay, you can rate and review us wherever you get your podcast
Matthew Amster-Burton 34:24
and hang out with other spilled milk listeners at reddit.com/r/everything, spilled milk where show us your stones. Gross.
Speaker 1 34:33
I won't be checking in there. No, but really, thank you for listening to spilled milk, the show that's got its nose to the grindstone and it's it's stones,
Matthew Amster-Burton 34:48
the other grinds, ouch. I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.
Unknown Speaker 34:54
I'm Molly Weisenberg. You.
Matthew Amster-Burton 35:00
I bless you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai