430: Shrimp Cocktail

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:03

I'm Matt. And I'm Molly and this is spilled melt the show where we cook something delicious. Eat it

Molly 0:08

all and you can't have any Today's episode is shrimp cocktail.

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:12

It was suggested by listener Sarah Atwood.

Molly 0:15

Hi, Sara. Sara is a good friend of mine and a longtime listener. Yeah, show.

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:19

I mean, she's she's such a good friend that we use her full name.

Molly 0:22

Yeah, it's true. Usually it's just listener Sarah or whatever. But you know what's awkward about Sarah Atwood?

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:28

Right? Let's let's get you have a problem with her and we're gonna get into

Molly 0:33

it. So she's married to a man whose last name is black. And I like in my phone. I have her Sarah Atwood, black. Okay, she hasn't legally changed her name. She would but but they refer to their family by his last name. So I'm very confused. Like so in my phone. It's like Sarah Atwood, black because I'm trying to cover all the bases.

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:58

I know exactly what you hear. It just changed her name and your phone to Sarah Atwood of the blacks. Oh, gosh. Pretty good.

Molly 1:04

That's great. That gives her like a real at sounds like she has maybe an estate

Matthew Amster-Burton 1:08

exam is just in your rolling state and a coat of arms. Yeah, like put her coat of arms as her image so it pops up on your

Molly 1:14

phone. What I think would be on her coat of arms. Shrimp Cocktail.

Matthew Amster-Burton 1:18

Yes, yes. brought it back around.

Molly 1:20

Okay, so anyway, Sarah,

Matthew Amster-Burton 1:22

like it would be a coat of arms like a shield with four quadrants. One would be a shrimp. One would be a lemon. One would be like, how, how could you put sauce on a coat of arms?

Molly 1:33

I think it would just be sort of a red like texture. Yeah.

Matthew Amster-Burton 1:37

Oh, I like that. You

Molly 1:38

know, like Rothko ish. Mark Rothko ish.

Matthew Amster-Burton 1:41

Yeah, we need more Rothko's coats of arms so people can like look at your coat of arms and cry.

Molly 1:46

Yeah. Or go deep into the color emotionally. What would be in the fourth quadrant though?

Matthew Amster-Burton 1:52

That's the that's always the most mysterious quadrant because like by, according to the comedy rule of threes, you're out of ideas by the time you get to the fourth quadrant. Like, we haven't done the episode yet, and I don't know much detail. So we'll finish by the end of this episode, we will have cracked that fourth quadrant.

Molly 2:09

Okay. So Sarah loves shrimp cocktail. But this episode idea also came up recently because so her father lives in like a retirement community. And Sara and her family went to the holiday retirement community party.

Matthew Amster-Burton 2:24

Okay, sounds good.

Molly 2:25

Apparently, at the party, there was like a big bowl of shrimp and cocktail sauce, like on the buffet. And Sara apparently ate a whole bunch of it. And Sarah felt that this was very typical of like an old people holiday buffet. And what do you think about that? Well,

Matthew Amster-Burton 2:44

I mean, do you think really, like my mind just started wandering to like, how much I think I would enjoy living in a retirement community. Because like it would be, it'll be kind of like going back to college. I

Molly 2:53

think you're right. Like it. I forget,

Matthew Amster-Burton 2:56

here's what I want out of retirement communities. So I mean, first of all, like I hear just like casual sex. It's rampid. And that sounds pretty good, right? I mean, as long as as long as it's all consensual you're using? Oh, sure. This was like a thing. I mean, I think this is sort of like a perennial, like, evergreen story that goes round. Like, you know, people in retirement communities are fucking more than you expect. And which, which, like, why should you expect wouldn't great?

Molly 3:20

Yes, they are.

Matthew Amster-Burton 3:22

Yeah, and sometimes, sometimes it has like, like, a layer of moralism on top, like, you know, but chlamydia rates are skyrocketing. But, you know, just like wrap it up yellow. Right. Okay, so So yes, I do. I mean, I think the the adjective that comes to mind when I think of shrimp cocktail is surburban. And I don't know if that's fair or not, but I guess I also would think of it as like, something you would have if you were like, an heiress and have like a whole floor of a building in Manhattan or something. So I don't know.

Molly 3:54

I mean, I think that and we'll talk more about this but I think that it definitely makes sense to me that one might think of shrimp cocktail is kind of like old people food because of when it was really popular in the state right, like from the 60s to the 80s

Matthew Amster-Burton 4:10

that is gets right. The other thing I was thinking about which is like by the time we're ready to move into you know, shady acres or whatever gonna

Molly 4:19

be on our buffet

Matthew Amster-Burton 4:20

Well, not not so much the buffet but like you know, the music that we listen to his kids with you old people music right.

Molly 4:26

Do you think that if we move into the same retirement community will

Matthew Amster-Burton 4:34

I mean, that's what all the listeners have been hoping, assuming

Molly 4:38

that orgy with our spouses. I mean, Matthew are so

Matthew Amster-Burton 4:45

i think i think the only reason we haven't done that already is because like scheduling anything with four people it's such a pain in the ass. What I was getting but we need to I need to finish this thought okay, which is like what I want at our at our retirement community. He is for, like, cover bands of the bands of our youth or just the bands of our youth like to come around and like play, you know, like, like the offspring, like play a show at our or an offspring cover band. If we can't afford the actual offspring play a show at our retirement community. Okay, I don't know why the offspring is. Well, I don't know. come out and play that. Exactly. And then that would be the song that would kick off your Jeep. And in fact, you don't even need a special SOG orgy if you know the circumstances are right. It just happens. That's been my experience. You would know.

Molly 5:39

Alright. Anyway, um, here's here's here's my other thought. I don't feel like if shrimp showed up at a buffet uninvited at an at a retirement community. I don't know that I'm gonna gravitate toward it because I feel like it's not gonna be the most tasty shrimp.

Matthew Amster-Burton 5:58

Yeah, well, that's that's the thing. The other thing when I think of shrimp cocktail, no

Molly 6:02

judgment, Sarah, but a little bit of judgment.

Matthew Amster-Burton 6:05

Well, it seems like a dish that could be made well, and we're gonna try and do that today. But also, I think of like the the frozen shrimp cocktail set that's in the freezer case like the supermarket is there. Is there one? Oh, yeah. There's like a ring of shrimp around the edge. And you just defrost it and serve and that doesn't like it's cooked and ready to go that? I don't like I bet I've eaten it, but I don't feel good about it. Okay, the other thing about the retirement community is that the guitarist of the offspring is named noodles. And that's also saying they could appear on the buffet. And so a lot of synergy there. Yes.

Molly 6:39

This is great. Okay, well, Matthew, wait, let's go down memory lane. Okay. What we did instead was we went down future lane.

Matthew Amster-Burton 6:47

That's true. Yeah, we should do that more often. I like that because I have no shrimp cocktail memory lane. This was a thing I think I knew existed as a kid, but seemed to combine cold food and catch up, which are two things that I was terrified of as a child.

Molly 7:00

Okay. I remember loving shrimp cocktail as a kid. I was, like you I was a picky eater, but picky in like a different way. And that shrimp cocktail really appealed to me because it was quite plain. You know what I mean? It's just like unflavored shrimp and you could like dip a little corner in this flavorful sauce,

Matthew Amster-Burton 7:22

but don't dip too deep. Don't

Molly 7:23

dip too deep. Anyway, I also think of it you know, I grew up in a very suburban place, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma in the 80s and 90s. And, and there was a lot of shrimp cocktail on menus.

Matthew Amster-Burton 7:36

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I kind of forgot until I just noticed it on the menu that that shrimp cocktail can take a form other than a whole bunch of strength around the circumference. ladder. I

Molly 7:46

had not thought about this and then carry on in a class. Yes.

Matthew Amster-Burton 7:49

So is that happened at the arch?

Molly 7:52

It felt so ordering trim cocktail as a kid felt both like fancy. And also very easy to love. Okay, and yeah, it was always served around the rim of a glass or a bowl. Like like one of those sort of like a weird like stainless steel bowl with a foot on it. Like a human.

Matthew Amster-Burton 8:17

The foot I do but you said ring around the bottom. on it. It was which seemed like a weird way to express that anyway. What I what I imagined when you when would there was that pregnant pause there was that you were gonna say like one of those punch balls with the glasses that hang off at all the shrimp hanging off of it.

Molly 8:34

That sounds amazing. So can we get down so before we start cooking our shrimp and making some cocktail sauce? Yeah. Can I tell you a bit about what shrimp cocktail is? From Okay, I fell down possibly my deepest Wikipedia rabbit hole ever working on this episode? Can

Matthew Amster-Burton 8:53

I just interrupt for just a moment? Yeah, recently I was I was riding the bus with teenager the show Iris who was telling we were talking about geology and Iris was telling me about quote a super deep borehole and the thing that immediately popped into my head it was stuck in my head for the rest of the day was a super deep borehole from the oak town from from the song you can't touch this. So it sounds like you fell down a super deep Wikipedia borehole I did that was really worth the deed that was really

Molly 9:18

worth that was like one of those jokes that you were waiting on, like waiting to have a use for it.

Matthew Amster-Burton 9:27

Great. All right, speaking of holes, okay,

Molly 9:30

so the name of the dish is like bound up with the name of the sauce itself. Like I from what it seems to me the idea of cocktail sauce is inextricable from like being served with seafood.

Matthew Amster-Burton 9:42

Okay, okay, but it's it's like not a typical seafood e sauce.

Molly 9:47

No, I know Hang on. I'll do my best to explain this. But I still like I not only did I look at Wikipedia, but I also read a number of other articles about shrimp cocktail, and I still can't really understand where this particular sauce came from?

Matthew Amster-Burton 10:04

Oh, this is interesting because I did the research for next week's episode and I also ran into place where the history got really hazy.

Molly 10:12

Yeah, I mean, I think that if I were like a real food historian I'm sure I could get to the bottom of this real fast like with microfilm

Matthew Amster-Burton 10:21

and might work right exactly. But you didn't you didn't go into the fish room. I did not preparing for this episode. Okay,

Molly 10:27

anyway, so any type of seafood served with this particular sauce is called like a blank cocktail. So there's oyster cocktail, shrimp cocktail. Those are the most common shrimp cocktail also goes by the name of prawn cocktail. Anyway, the sauce and the the dish for which it's named, is often credited to this British celebrity chef.

Matthew Amster-Burton 10:49

Oh, Jamie Oliver,

Molly 10:51

who went by the name Fanny Cradock and it often credited to her from like the mid 60s. Okay, so here's where the Wikipedia rabbit hole opens up. Okay, cuz I was like, Who's Fanny Cradock and what? Why have I never heard of her? Okay, so hold on, man. Okay, her real name was Phyllis Nan Sartain pece and she went by Primrose,

Matthew Amster-Burton 11:17

but she rose patchy. She had both a nickname and a pseudonym.

Molly 11:21

Well, yeah, so I still couldn't find where that was odd

Matthew Amster-Burton 11:24

where her like, you know, TV name Fanny. kradic came from but also like, isn't isn't Fannie like an obscene word. But I guess I saw I had that thought now. Like, wait a minute, there are lots of people in America named dick and

Molly 11:40

Anyway, she was born in 1909. She died in 1994. And she was an English restaurant critic TV cook, and a writer quote, frequently appearing on television at cookery demonstrations and in print with major Johnny Craddock, who played the part of a slightly bumbling henpecked husband.

Matthew Amster-Burton 11:59


Molly 12:00

Now, I could never figure out like, I don't think she was actually married.

Matthew Amster-Burton 12:03

What exactly what I was getting, I

Molly 12:05

could not figure it out, apparently, like then Johnny kradic I can't know whether he died or was disgraced. It's the same and then like, Johnny kradic got canceled. Somebody else came along and like replaced him on the TV appearances or something. Okay, but anyway, you know what it made me think of it made me think a little bit of Iona garden and Geoffrey. Oh,

Matthew Amster-Burton 12:27


Molly 12:28

I mean, I wouldn't call him like a slightly bumbling henpecked husband, but I also would call him that.

Matthew Amster-Burton 12:35

Okay, I don't know if I've ever actually seen a whole episode of that show. But I get the basic gist. I think

Molly 12:40

I haven't watched it in a long time. And certainly, I mean, I know Garten is a lovely person, I don't mean to pick on her. I've heard only good things about her. But inevitably, whenever I would see an episode of the show where Geoffrey her husband would appear, it's like he would come home from work, and he would come into the kitchen, and he would just be delighted by whatever she was doing and then would help her carry the dishes to the table or to the beach for the picnic.

Matthew Amster-Burton 13:05

You're but you're describing this in a way that sounds slightly derogatory.

Molly 13:11

It just would sort of like swoop in and was just very amenable. I wouldn't call that hen pack

Matthew Amster-Burton 13:15

okay though, but I thought you're gonna say reminded you have the show Valerie and how it turned into the Hogan family after she was fired from the show and killed off.

Unknown Speaker 13:24


Molly 13:25

when you go to the Wikipedia entry for British celebrity chef Fanny Cradock, you will find that there is a section there called downfall. Like every Wikipedia entry there's like personal life like Wi Fi, whatever. No, no, there's a section called downfall oh my god and I'm gonna read you verbatim from the downfall section and it's a bit long.

Matthew Amster-Burton 13:47

I will if this is if this is an hour long. I want to hear about the downfall of Fanny and major Johnny Craddock. Okay, get ready, just Fanny. So

Molly 13:56

this is all a quote from Wikipedia. In 1976. Glenn trope, a housewife living in Devon won the cook of the realm competition, the cook

Matthew Amster-Burton 14:06

of the realm, speaking of fucking codes of arms,

Molly 14:12

leading to the BBC selecting her to organize a banquet to be attended by Edward Heath Earl Mountbatten of Burma and other notables

Matthew Amster-Burton 14:21

you just said so many British things.

Molly 14:26

In my American accent

Matthew Amster-Burton 14:28

I feel like I now live in a castle so the

Molly 14:30

BBC filmed the results the banquet as a part of a series called The Big time and asked Fanny kradic by then attacks exile in Ireland

Matthew Amster-Burton 14:41

nice of course

Molly 14:41

as one of a number of experts who would advise stroke on the menu.

Matthew Amster-Burton 14:47

Okay, okay truck was the winner of the of the cooking con

Molly 14:50

right the housewife living in Devon who want a cooking contest and was selected by the BBC to organize a banquet to be attended by all of these notables. That doesn't sound like a reward. That sounds like punishment. Right? You get to organize a banquet with a bunch of rich and famous people. Oh,

Matthew Amster-Burton 15:07

yes, no, I have a story. I'm not gonna tell either. So they're

Molly 15:10

great. All right. So then Fanny kradic, who was in tax exile in Ireland, was brought in by the BBC. She was

Matthew Amster-Burton 15:17

lowered back and ready to buy a

Molly 15:20

truck on the menu. Okay, the result brought the end of Fanny chronics television career truck went through her menu of seafood cocktail dumpling with Bramble sauce

Matthew Amster-Burton 15:33

and cocktail appears in the downs Matthew

Molly 15:36

now you know why this rabbit hole was so deep? Okay, okay, so Troy could meet up this menu seafood cocktail duckling with Bramble sauce, and coffee cream dessert. Please Please don't ask about the Bramble sauce. Just wait a minute, please. All right. kradic. grimacing and acting as if on the verge of retching claimed not to know what a Bramble was told. Okay,

Matthew Amster-Burton 16:02

wait. Let's be fair. Nobody knows what brambles sauce is

Molly 16:06

just a minute, told trope that her menu was too rich. And though accepting that the desert was delicious, insisted that it was not suitable quote, you're among professionals now deer she declared. She scorned trucks use of an ingredient for being quote to English, and insisted that the English have never had their own cuisine, and erroneously claimed that quote, even the good old Yorkshire pudding comes from burgundy.

Unknown Speaker 16:39

I'm not done.

Unknown Speaker 16:42

I'm not done.

Matthew Amster-Burton 16:43

I've never been happier to be on this show.

Molly 16:46

Okay, Fanny suggested that trope use a small pastry boat filled with fruit sorbet, and covered with sponge sugar decorated with an orange slice and a cocktail stick through a cherry to give the dish the look of a small boat. Suitable Fanny thought for the naval guests.

Matthew Amster-Burton 17:07

That is a very helpful suggestion.

Molly 17:10

I'm not done. In the event, the desert was a disaster and could not be served properly. They don't elaborate on this.

Matthew Amster-Burton 17:19

Well, I mean, I'm not done. If we tried to make that desert Do you think it would come out?

Molly 17:24

Do you think the spun sugar was the disaster? Or like do you think like the sorbet was melting? Or

Matthew Amster-Burton 17:30

I think any number of things I'm sure the spun sugar didn't work out because that was a terrible idea.

Molly 17:35

Okay. Robert Morley. I don't know I don't know who that is, had also been consulted on the menu and said he felt the truck's original coffee pudding was perfect.

Matthew Amster-Burton 17:44

I mean, that sounds great. Right?

Molly 17:46

When the desert failed to impress the public was annoyed that Fannie kradic had seemingly ruined trucks special day, The Daily Telegraph wrote, quote, not since 1940, can the people of England have risen in such a unified rap? in the cloud, Fanny wrote a letter of apology to trope but the BBC terminated her contract two weeks after the broadcast of the program, she would never again present a cookery program for the BBC trope, by contrast, published a country cookbook the following year. Speaking about the incident on room 101 in 1999, the big times presenter Esther Ranson described kradic as quote hell on wheels, and that she had quote, reduced this poor little lady meaning trope to nothing.

Matthew Amster-Burton 18:40

That that's one of the downfall I've ever heard of any of these people, right yet. That was one of the greatest stories I've ever heard. And I think I want to invite I know you said Fanny is dead is dead. Which that's that's what it says on my APR it also, um, I don't know why, but I want like, I want her to come to the orgy at the at the retirement home and like, like spank people and criticize their desserts, but like, everybody's really getting off on it. I feel like she came out of this. Like, I'm kind of a kind of story. Kind of Yeah,

Molly 19:16

yeah. Yeah, I mean, she's definitely trying to be dominant. Okay, anyway, but hold on. Okay. So, you know, after basically I found a bunch of places that said Fanny kradic was the source of like, the origin of seafood cocktail, okay, but another woman named Constance Spry,

Matthew Amster-Burton 19:36

here, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. If I find out that you made up everything that we talked about so far,

Molly 19:44

I'm not a fiction writer. I

Matthew Amster-Burton 19:46

more impressed with you than I've ever been in my life. Constance just

Molly 19:51

published a seafood cocktail recipe using Dublin Bay prawns in 1956. So that predates the the, you know, mid 60s origin that is attributed to Fannie. I

Matthew Amster-Burton 20:03

feel like you're asking me to keep track of a whole timeline. Now

Molly 20:05

get ready because the timeline gets more complicated. So then Wikipedia goes on in the next paragraph. You would think that nobody edits Wikipedia.

Matthew Amster-Burton 20:14

No, I would think that everybody edits Wikipedia.

Molly 20:16

Alright, Wikipedia goes on in the next paragraph to say that seafood cocktails originated in the 19th century in the United States. And another page of Wikipedia says that serving seafood with a pecan sauce is ancient in origin,

Matthew Amster-Burton 20:32

ancient I know so Okay, wait, hold on.

Molly 20:34

Wait a minute. And then in the book, the prawn cocktail years, which was published in 1997, Simon Hopkinson and Lindsey Barron, note that the prawn cocktail has quote a direct lineage to Escoffier a. Okay, well, wait

Matthew Amster-Burton 20:49

a minute.

Molly 20:49

This is a mystery. It's the mystery of our time.

Matthew Amster-Burton 20:51

It is the mystery of our time. I just realized something. So So Fannie, Fannie Crocker, was that her name Annie Craddock, Fannie kraddick, she was on TV, like criticizing people's desserts and like calling them names and stuff in front of the whole nation, and was like roundly, you know, she was like, driven out of public life for this and sent back to tax exile in Ireland. And then like, just a few years later, like Gordon Ramsay comes on and does exactly the same thing and everyone loves him. Why the double standard England times change? Yeah, or institutionalized misogyny.

Molly 21:24

Yeah, the patriarchy

Matthew Amster-Burton 21:26

I'm gonna I'm gonna like graft that narrative onto this possibly made up story that I don't know anything about.

Molly 21:32

No, I think that that is a that's a narrative that actually is grafted to everyday Yeah,

Matthew Amster-Burton 21:36

it's actually quite quite a plausible explanation. Yeah, I

Molly 21:39

think so. Alright, so anyway, what however you trace the origins of seafood cocktail, seafood with spiced cold sauces, as bad as that sounds based cold sauces, were a well established part of like the 20th century food repertoire. Okay, basically, anyway, um, so yeah, prawn cocktail, or shrimp cocktail was the most popular hors d'oeuvre in the UK and the US. From the late 60s to the late 80s measured how Wilson ratings

Matthew Amster-Burton 22:10


Molly 22:10

workers. I wonder how this was measured?

Matthew Amster-Burton 22:12

Like I imagine like, like a guy with a clipboard would be seen at your cocktail party just like writing notes. And like, you know, that's the guy from the Nielsen ratings. He's just like measuring hors d'oeuvre. Popularity popularity. Yeah.

Molly 22:25

According to Nigel Slater prawn cocktail has spent most of its life see sawing from the height of fashion to the laughably passe.

Matthew Amster-Burton 22:33

Yeah, that seems right.

Molly 22:34

It's now often served with a degree of irony. And God ironic food makes me so tired, what other things are served with a degree of irony these days?

Matthew Amster-Burton 22:43

I will try and answer that question. But I just realized, wait a minute. Did you look on YouTube to see if the Fannie kradic downfall episode is available to watch?

Molly 22:53

I didn't, it would be an episode of The Big time I okay. During the break, we're gonna we're gonna name 76 people.

Matthew Amster-Burton 23:00

I don't mean was it uploaded to YouTube at the time? Like, there's all kinds of shit that Pete like old movies and stuff that people put on YouTube?

Molly 23:10

Right? Here's what's confusing to me. I mean, I don't really understand if Fanny Craddick was actually on the show. It seems like she must have she must. Yeah, like

Matthew Amster-Burton 23:19

it would be hard to hate someone who didn't appear on the show, right? Yeah,

Molly 23:23

I agree. Okay. Anyway, um, can I tell you something else that maybe

Matthew Amster-Burton 23:28

you can tell me anything and whether it's true or not, I'm gonna be delighted.

Molly 23:32

So before the 1992 British General Election, the Labour Party was campaigning to win the support of business leaders by like insisting that they that the Labour Party was not going to interfere with the market economy. I think this is basically like, sort of like Joe Biden being like, Hey, rich people, don't worry, nothing's gonna change. Well,

Matthew Amster-Burton 23:51

I mean, right during the 92 election in the US, like the Democratic leadership conference committee was doing exactly the same.

Molly 23:58

Okay. Anyway, the camp who

Matthew Amster-Burton 24:01

I remembered a real historical fact.

Molly 24:03

I'm really proud of you. That campaign was lampooned as the prawn cocktail offensive. How did you read that?

Matthew Amster-Burton 24:12

I think I think like they're using prawn cocktail, like in the sense of like caviar. Yeah, like, take away your your prawn cocktails and your caviar. Yeah, vote for us. Okay.

Molly 24:23

Yeah. Anyway, I think that's I think that's pretty much the end of all the exciting history of shrimp cocktail. So I wonder if actually what we should do now is go into making it I think we should talk more about it when we actually eat it.

Matthew Amster-Burton 24:38

Okay, but before we even make anything you like, you can start cooking and I Jeffrey, I'm gonna scour YouTube for like videos of Fanny kradic spanking people. I

Molly 24:51

want you to start cooking and I'm gonna be Jeffrey by Okay. All right.

Matthew Amster-Burton 25:01

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Molly 25:03

So you're excited and nervous

Matthew Amster-Burton 25:06

because of the upcoming retirement orgy.

Molly 25:11

Okay, man, you know, whatever happens happens. It's true. There are many different ways to have sex.

Matthew Amster-Burton 25:17

That's true. I don't know. Like one and a half myself. Looking forward to expanding

Molly 25:24

one and a half by yourself. You mean? Yeah, that's Sorry, man. Yeah, there. Yeah.

Matthew Amster-Burton 25:30

Right hand and then the left hand. That's not okay.

Molly 25:37

All right. Needless to say, this episode should definitely be marked

Matthew Amster-Burton 25:41

for June.

Molly 25:42

Yep. All right. So Matthew, wait, let's let's go ahead and eat this. And then we're going to talk

Matthew Amster-Burton 25:47

Oh, by the way, we need to mention we did find the video and we'll post a link in the show notes to the video of Fannie kradic castigating. Glen truck is

Molly 25:57

the best part about it is that it has like closed captioning. And the closed captioning is just totally raw. pletely

Matthew Amster-Burton 26:02

wrong in a delightful way.

Molly 26:05

Okay, hang on. I'm double dipping.

Matthew Amster-Burton 26:07

I'm single dipping,

Unknown Speaker 26:09


Molly 26:11

Okay, hold on. Matthew and I are just going to talk amongst ourselves for a minute. You can just wait. Okay, so wait till you taste this one.

Matthew Amster-Burton 26:17

Can I double dip?

Molly 26:19

Yeah, double dip. I

Matthew Amster-Burton 26:20

just double dipped. Okay, so the the homemade one is good. And the storebought sauce is bad. I mean,

Molly 26:26

I think I've eaten a lot of the storebought sauce. And yeah, I

Matthew Amster-Burton 26:28

think I think it would be not bad if like it was a thing that I had grown up with, but it just seems kind of like weird catch up to me. Yeah. But the homemade one is it's got Zim. Like it's zesty. from Africa. It's zesty. From zest and lemon juice and horseradish. Really? The horseradish really makes it for me. I think I

Molly 26:44

am into it, man.

Matthew Amster-Burton 26:46

I don't love it because it's just not the kind of sauce that I love. But I there are things about it. I can appreciate, huh? Oh man, I

Molly 26:53

am down to cocktail. Okay. brah love this. Okay.

Matthew Amster-Burton 26:57

All right, let's

Molly 26:58

discuss. So, in the US and Canada, cocktail sauce usually consists of like at a minimum ketchup or chili sauce more to come on that mixed with prepared horseradish. Okay. And then common additions to that are lemon juice, Worcestershire sauce and

Matthew Amster-Burton 27:14

Tabasco. The the use of the term prepared and prepared horseradish. Is there anything else you buy that is described as prepared? Such and such? I mean, there probably is, but I guess what I'm trying to say is Can anyone really prepare for horseradish? No. Okay.

Molly 27:31

Okay, so hold on. Now, researching this was the first time I'd ever heard of chili sauce, specifically Heinz chili sauce. And even yesterday, when I went to the store to look for it, I could not figure out where it was going to be. So when I follow the Wikipedia entry for chili sauce,

Matthew Amster-Burton 27:48

it tells you to go to aisle seven.

Molly 27:50

It talks about like hot sauce, right? But then it also has like a line about Heinz chili sauce, which apparently is a tomato based prepared sauce with some chilies in it. And if you look at the ingredients, it's literally the same ingredients as ketchup. Like it smells more like cocktail. So I sniffed the bottle. It smells more like cocktail sauce than it does like ketchup. But I have to say it's got that very tomato sweetness that ketchup does.

Matthew Amster-Burton 28:21

Yeah, I still

Molly 28:22

don't like what what does one use chili sauce for other than like shrimp cocktail?

Matthew Amster-Burton 28:28

I don't know the answer. I do get the sense that there was a time in maybe the early history of the Heinz Corporation when they were like, well, we're pretty good at this ketchup thing. Let's make a bunch of other sauces that are pretty much the same as ketchup, but with one little bit of the flavor tweaked slightly like Heinz 57 sauce and Heinz chili sauce, and probably others. I'm sure you buy high cocktail sauce.

Molly 28:50

I did see a bottle of mayo chop. Okay, which we've discussed in ADS before. Um, anyway, okay, hold on. Now, Matthew, this, this is gonna blow your mind.

Matthew Amster-Burton 29:01

I kind of doubt it after what we've been through already on this episode. But try me. So the

Molly 29:06

common form of cocktail sauce, you know what goes by the name cocktail sauce in the UK? Iceland, France, Italy, basically on the continent, shall we say,

Matthew Amster-Burton 29:15

Okay. Iceland, not on the continent. Is this is this big in Iceland? Is there a reason

Molly 29:20

you mentioned Iceland was mentioned in Wikipedia? Okay, okay. The gist that I got is that the thing that is called cocktail sauce outside of North America consists of mail mixed with a tomato sauce.

Matthew Amster-Burton 29:35


Molly 29:35

Mayo chop basically, it's about the same shade of pink as like prawns. I saw some pictures of it online. And apparently it's you know, similar to 1000 Island dressing. And the usual British name for it is Marie or or Mary Rose sauce.

Matthew Amster-Burton 29:52

Heard that

Molly 29:53

and apparently it was like so ubiquitous in the 60s and 70s that it was sort of like the punchline of a joke.

Matthew Amster-Burton 29:59

Like A dirty joke. Oh no, wait, do you know what the joke

Molly 30:02

is? I don't know. But I don't know.

Matthew Amster-Burton 30:04

Did it have a downfall? Did Mary Rose sauce have a downfall?

Molly 30:07

I don't think so. So I want to talk a little bit about about where maybe the the name cocktail came from.

Matthew Amster-Burton 30:15


Molly 30:18

Obviously it's served usually as an hors d'oeuvre so you might drink a cocktail with it or have it at like cocktail time.

Matthew Amster-Burton 30:26

Yes, which which occurs at my house every day as

Molly 30:29

sort of like teleologically not teleological know what tautological like which came first cocked, tail our or like cocktails or cocktail sauce? Is that what tautological view is circular? Yeah,

Matthew Amster-Burton 30:45

that's not a teleological word, but I don't know what it means. Like I think

Molly 30:50

like moving toward an end or like teleology of something. I don't know. I used it in bananagrams reason.

Matthew Amster-Burton 30:59

You haven't tried it? Ever since you played that word and banana graves you've been looking for the moment to brag about where you played in Vedanta grams.

Molly 31:09

g teleology or finality is a reason or explanation for something as a function of its end or purpose or goal.

Matthew Amster-Burton 31:17

Okay, so So does this. Could we somehow relate this to like the final joke on auto spilled milk episode? Like, like, the tea, I don't know that. I feel like I need to go back to college.

Molly 31:31

explaining something in terms of its purpose or its goal. Okay. So I came out like evolution,

Matthew Amster-Burton 31:38

spilled milk is a show that is about generating material to try and cobble together into a final one liner. That's a teleological explanation of spilled milk. I feel like I should get at least like let's look at this. Now, I don't have to apologize is saying

Molly 31:54

the same thing twice in different words, right razor expression, which the same thing is said twice in a statement. That's true by necessity or by virtue of its logical form? Right. Yeah. What I said was not a tautology.

Matthew Amster-Burton 32:07

No. But we use though, I think, I think what what you did was like TELUS speaking teleologically. Like, what you've done is set yourself up for some great future banana gram play.

Molly 32:20

Great. Okay. And okay. Anyway, so what I was going to say is that it's like a telescope.

Matthew Amster-Burton 32:27

Because that's looking at like the end of Nevermind. Okay, probably not.

Molly 32:32

You look through a telescope, if you can see the end of the universe, like the time and the universe, like when it all ends?

Matthew Amster-Burton 32:40

I mean, like, first, you'd have to like point the telescope somewhere other than your neighbor's window.

Molly 32:46

Oh, well, yeah. Anyway, some sources link the serving of shrimp cocktail in like cocktail glasses to the ban on alcoholic drinks during Prohibition, I guess. I know this doesn't seem logical. Like you're like, Oh, look, this this cocktail sauce is so much like my my whiskey.

Matthew Amster-Burton 33:09

I thought you meant more where there was like, we've got all these classes that are gathering to put something in.

Molly 33:15

Yeah, I don't know that this the only part of this episode. Nobody should try to

Matthew Amster-Burton 33:19

learn anything. Okay. Right.

Molly 33:21

Anyway, so Okay, recently I went out for and by recently, I mean, like, last Thursday, I went out for a shrimp cocktail with listener Sarah Atwood, okay, cuz she's also my friend at Taylor shellfish. Seattle, where they make their own cocktail sauce. I have to say, we'll talk a little bit in just a second about this one that we made. But theirs was very, very spicy. More horse ratter horse ratterree were strategy. But here's what's interesting. This is

Matthew Amster-Burton 33:51

kradic is down at the horse ratterree.

Molly 33:54

Anyway, what I realized is, it's been so long since I had like ordered or eaten shrimp cocktail, that it felt very disorienting to me when the shrimp came out on like a bed of ice, like oysters on the half shell do, which is so logical, right? I mean, of course, you would serve cold shrimp. That way, it

Matthew Amster-Burton 34:15

would make a lot of sense. And you asked me to get a bag of ice for this episode, and I did not. That's correct. So we have shrimp called shrimp on a plate.

Molly 34:23

Anyway, I'm just so accustomed to like the dumb fancy presentation that it seems so strange to me to have it served in like a logical way that we serve cold seafood.

Matthew Amster-Burton 34:34

Yeah, was that a good story? It was a good story, which is the song that has that where they keep saying hot sex on a platter. Oh, I'm

Molly 34:40

not sure. Okay. Anyway, so Okay, let's let's get down to talking about actually eating this stuff. So

Matthew Amster-Burton 34:46

we didn't eating it. There's been a lot of chewing

Molly 34:48

today. We made a bone up a tea recipe that Bon appetit calls its best shrimp cocktail.

Matthew Amster-Burton 34:53

And it was it's good and it was very easy.

Molly 34:56

Yeah, it has you blanch the the shrimp in like a brown Right, like a salt and sugar bath.

Matthew Amster-Burton 35:02

Yeah, I would say maybe poach rather than Blanche.

Molly 35:05

Oh, that's true because it wasn't there for like three minutes, but

Matthew Amster-Burton 35:07

but Blanche Blanche Blanche prawn cocktail was Nevermind. Anyway.

Molly 35:13

So it was delicious. We'll link to the recipe. So that particular recipe I think, made the shrimp tastes really good. could also be that our shrimp are really fresh,

Matthew Amster-Burton 35:24

or like bought these this morning recently defrosted?

Molly 35:27

Well, yeah, yes. Yes. I

Matthew Amster-Burton 35:30

stopped watching Maya this morning and before recording this episode and bought some shrimp there, you would think there would be more to this story, but there is not. Okay.

Molly 35:39

Well, so in the headnote to that Bon appetit recipe they say as though this are just a given. That shrimp cocktail is all about the shrimp. But I feel like shrimp cocktail often or at least historically, showed up on the menu in like menus and places where you just knew the shrimp was not gonna be the bass. Right, you know? So then I was in my continuing to look around then I found that Nigel Slater when he's written about trim cocktails is that it's all about the sauce after you. What is it all about for you?

Matthew Amster-Burton 36:12

I mean, for me, it's all about the trip because I don't really like the sauce that much. So I think as a dish though, it seems like more about the sauce to me. Yeah.

Molly 36:22

Because when I put the amount of sauce on here that I like, I kind of don't taste the

Matthew Amster-Burton 36:26

shrimp. I think if I were going to make something that was all about the shrimp, I would do shrimp with like butter, garlic and white wine.

Molly 36:32

I would do like it. Yeah, like a shrimp scampi. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 36:35


Molly 36:35

what size shrimp Do you like when you're just eating it like this?

Matthew Amster-Burton 36:39

I'm so glad you asked. So I think this is probably my favorite size which is 2630. Okay, and that means each shrimp is 26 to 30 inches long.

Molly 36:51

Know what it really means is there there 26 to 30 shrimp per pound. Yes.

Matthew Amster-Burton 36:55

The next size after that is 2125 which is also a very good all around like fairly large shrimp size. After like below that it starts to feel sort of like too much for me.

Molly 37:08

Yes, I remember once going to Costco here in Seattle with my friend Ben. And they were having like a deal on jumbo like tiger prawns.

Unknown Speaker 37:19


Molly 37:20

Ben is a real man who loves deals. And he also loves

Matthew Amster-Burton 37:27

a real man who just loves a big juicy shrimp shrimp.

Molly 37:31

Now, Ben loves a deal

Matthew Amster-Burton 37:32

love to go to a shrimp house order a 72 ounce Porter

Molly 37:37

deal and he loves to cook so you know, like in addition to buying like toilet paper and paper towels and whatever. He also bought like a pound of these shrimp that were basically like lobsters, okay, and we brought them home and he poached them or something like that and made us lunch. And they were so big. I was completely repulsed by them and could only manage to eat like one and a half of them. Because I really felt like I was eating. There's something about large shrimp or prawns that is really challenging for me. They get like really muscular some.

Matthew Amster-Burton 38:11

Oh, yeah, I know what you mean. But also like to me the little tiny ones are much more challenging. Oh, really? Yeah. Like the little the little like it's something guys. It's called shrimp meat. It's not something I have a lot of difficulty with that.

Unknown Speaker 38:25

What about like,

Unknown Speaker 38:27


Molly 38:28

I remember my host mother used to sometimes serve these tiny, tiny shrimp. I think they might be called like brown shrimp. Okay, okay,

she served some time. Some sort of tiny shrimp. Were you like, I can't even remember if we peeled them. But anyway, I was totally not bothered by it. Yeah, I don't know. For me big shrimp are way harder than the idea of smaller shrimp.

Matthew Amster-Burton 38:50

Well, I mean, I think this is why we get along so well because you're afraid of the big shrimp that I'm afraid of the smallest room that we can trade.

Molly 38:55

Okay, anyway, I agree. I think 2630 is really ideal. Yeah, I mean, I don't understand what the draw is with big shrimp right

Matthew Amster-Burton 39:03

the other thing is the bigger they get the more expensive they get per pound and they're not they don't taste better

Molly 39:09

also the bigger they're like poop tracts are exactly did you you didn't do a nice right I like

Matthew Amster-Burton 39:15

did a couple that I was like it probably doesn't matter. It looks very clean. Yeah, they look they've seen pretty clean

Molly 39:20

anyway, but putty recommend 1620 shrimp which is really big. I don't want that.

Matthew Amster-Burton 39:27

That means like each shrimp is like an ounce.

Molly 39:30

Well and then conversely, I was reading on a website called etiquette scholar. So they had a section called table manners for eating shrimp cocktail. Oh, great. In case you wondered. And here's what they say the shrimp in a shrimp cocktail should be served peeled and are usually small enough to be eaten in one bite. That is blatantly not what trim. Usually it's not. So yeah, I'm glad we talked about this.

Matthew Amster-Burton 39:56

What did you learn any other good etiquette tips

Molly 39:58

they say that you should start With an oyster fork

Matthew Amster-Burton 40:01

I was I was just gonna go any smaller like, especially

Molly 40:05

if the shrimp are bigger than one bites where it's just spear eat shrimp with your fork and cut it on the plate on which it served. I

Matthew Amster-Burton 40:11

don't think so. I mean, nobody does that quintessential

Molly 40:13

fingerfood I don't think I've ever seen anybody balk about like shrimp cocktail, like biting it. And to

Matthew Amster-Burton 40:23

know there's a reason to talk about

Molly 40:24

it is tricky. If you're say at the retirement community holiday party, right. I mean, I

Matthew Amster-Burton 40:30

started planning the holiday party, you're

Molly 40:33

taking some shrimp and you're probably taking a spoonful of the cocktail sauce. Okay. All right. So that there's no double dipping question,

Matthew Amster-Burton 40:41

because it's all because you are in full control of this small reservoir of sauce. Yeah, right.

Molly 40:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're not gonna stand at the buffet. And take like a bite of your shrimp and then dip it back in the big old bowl of

Matthew Amster-Burton 40:53

salt. Okay.

Molly 40:55

You get booted out

Matthew Amster-Burton 40:56

of the origin I like looked at you like like gaze directly to your eyes and like reach across it did my shrimp into your sauce like would you I think this is this is how most most like propositions are made at their at their retirement. I

Molly 41:13

shrimp in your cocktail sauce. Anyway, okay. Lastly, Matthew. If you were having this as hors d'oeuvres Okay, what would you want to drink with it?

Matthew Amster-Burton 41:23

I would want to drink I don't know. Like, I'm not like the older I get. I think the less I care about drink pairings. First of all, yeah, I think like a like a Pilsner. Or, or like, I mean, maybe a very dry white wine. Great.

Molly 41:42

I think that I would drink either of those. I think that there will be some listeners among us who say that the thing to drink with a shrimp cocktail is like a cold Martini.

Matthew Amster-Burton 41:51

I can I can be personally

Molly 41:53

I think I can get that like the the vodka flavor with the horseradish, the the seafood

Matthew Amster-Burton 42:00


Molly 42:00

or I suppose Jan, I don't know why I thought of vodka. I think gin would actually be better but

Matthew Amster-Burton 42:04

I mean, realistically what I would drink with this is my favorite beverage which is cold water.

Molly 42:09


Matthew Amster-Burton 42:10

Yes. That's definitely my favorite beverage. I'm a very exciting person.

Molly 42:13

You are. Wow, I cannot wait to hang out with you

Matthew Amster-Burton 42:18

in India, but that's the thing like like I under promise and over deliver because like, like, you know, vathy is like not he's not trying to condiments, which seems like maybe he's very unadventurous. His favorite drink is called water. But then like, once the once the orgy starts,

Molly 42:34

you're gonna bring out your one and a half types of sex.

Matthew Amster-Burton 42:43

All right, okay. You can find us online at spellbook podcast.com. a website that's pretty much broken at nonfunctional at this point.

Molly 42:53

On our website, it was never that great. But it did at least work.

Matthew Amster-Burton 42:57

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's still sort of works. There's just nothing there anymore. But you can find us on on like stitcher and like, like, see our show notes there. Like it's in your podcast player. If we say we're gonna link to something, you know, pull up the show description on your phone and it'll be right there.

Molly 43:11

Anyway, do check out this bone appetit recipe for shrimp cocktail, which

Matthew Amster-Burton 43:15

I endorse. Yeah, well, we'll link to that facebook.com slash build mouth podcast like what is this? What is the seafood cocktail situation like where you are? If you're in Iceland? I definitely want to hear from you. Like but is it a pink sauce? Is it a red sauce? Is there no sauce?

Molly 43:29

Do you have any like jokes about Marie rose sauce? Yeah, or Mary Rose? That's

Matthew Amster-Burton 43:35

right. We need to the first thing we're gonna do after this episode is Google. We're gonna watch the rest of that video with Fannie kradic then we're gonna Google and Marie rose sauce joke. Okay, we're gonna turn off safe search.

Molly 43:46

I think that we should also give thanks for our producer Abby sercotel

Matthew Amster-Burton 43:51

this being our Thanksgiving episode? No. Is it actually it's Icelandic Thanksgiving is this week

Molly 43:58

I think that Abby may have quit by the time she's done editing this show she's gonna be like you guys have crossed a line I'm not moving into the retirement community with you I'm

Matthew Amster-Burton 44:09

taking back well I mean to be fair, my deposit like considering considering like the the age gap between us and producer Abby like we will we will have expired before she moves into the retirement community. So no worries there. You can find us on Instagram at spilled milk podcast. Thank you for listening spilled milk. That was that was one Stay tuned for the half. volley was invited i Matthew Amster-Burton. Actually,

Molly 44:43

I'm not going to tell this story.

Matthew Amster-Burton 44:45

Okay, great. I can't wait to hear it after the show. Okay.